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I'm committing myself to getting my Private Pilot's Certificate and
am interviewing schools in the Austin area. I've narrowed it down
to two contrasting programs and welcome any input. Both schools are
based out of the Georgetown, TX airport. The first school is run
by retired military avaitors, Type 61, very conservative and quite
expensive. Very measured and controlled guys. Ground school is one-
on-one with one instructor; flight training is with another. They
alternate days of ground vs flight. They encourage a program that
cycles through home DVD review, text with Q&A, simulator, then
actual flight time for each level. They encourage home purchase of
a simulator for use during training and beyond. They make a
compelling argument that this is more detailed than "quickie"
programs and turns out a better aviator. Training aircraft is
likely a Piper Archer 3. Recommend 2 to 3 days per week. Cost: get
ready, around $20K, based on 60-75 hours anticipated time.School Two is 141. Classroom-based ground school twice a week on a
fixed schedule. Larger organization with 15 aircraft. Recommend 3-
4 days a week, typical student finishes in 55-65 hours. Training is
either a Tomahawk (I eventually plan on a higher performance plane
for my mission) or a Warrior at a slightly higher cost. Careful
matching of instructors to student. Total cost around $7-8K.I'm scheduling discovery flights within the next week but would
love input. Has anyone experienced a more meticulous program and
felt the benefit? Does owning a simulator (assuming I use it)
provide me a option to become a better pilot? At the end of the
day, I plan on flying my family on missions of 500-700 miles. I
want to become as competent as possible before putting them in an
airplane with me. I can afford the higher cost, but is this
throwing money away? I know this is a decision that's mine to make,
but I welcome input on your experiences.
-- Peter Rauch, February 20, 2009
For $20,000 you can buy a Piper Archer. Many CFIs will be happy to instruct you for free in order to build hours or simply enjoy a day in the air. Simulator training is of no value for the Private certificate. Save your simulator time and energy for instrument training and emergency training in jets.
-- Philip Greenspun, March 5, 2009
Jason, Jane (below): Nobody would be more delighted than I if the market-clearing wage for a CFI were $1000 per hour. Remember that I have a CFI, CFII, and CFI-H. However, $1000 is not the market-clearing wage for a CFI right now. It is not productive to talk about what a worker deserves (except maybe in government, health care, and other portions of our new planned economy) because employers don't pay what a worker deserves. They pay a wage sufficient to attract a worker.Jane: You're looking at Trade-a-Plane to see what planes are worth? Those prices are owners' fantasies and represent what the plane might have sold for in 2007. A friend recently purchased a reasonably modern Piper Warrior with a Garmin 430 and a brand-new engine. He paid $35,000, less than what the previous owner had spent on the engine overhaul and the Garmin. He got the airframe for free.
Anyway, Mr. Rauch doesn't even need to buy a whole plane. He could buy a 1/3rd share of a Cessna 172 at his local airport and let his partners recommend some good private instructors. If he feels like paying those instructors the $15-25 per flight hour that a flight school might pay them, he can do that and still not come anywhere near spending $20,000.
Peter: Remember that there are hundreds of regional jet pilots who were recently furloughed by airlines. Nearly all of these guys were active flight instructors until a year or two ago. All of them are going to be very procedure- and detail-oriented or they wouldn't have been hired by their airline. They were only getting paid about $20,000 per year at their old job, so they would be delighted to work for almost any wage.
-- Philip Greenspun, March 6, 2009
Hello Peter, School One seems to have all the right elements -- alternating flights with ground, home study, etc. Furthermore, if you fly 2-3 times per week, you should be able to be ready for a checkride in 4-6 months, which is a very good pace. Any slower and you'll wind up reviewing a lot and wasting money. Much faster (say, less than 6 weeks) and you may miss out on the depth of learning that makes a better, safer pilot.For the Private Pilot Certificate however, simulator work does not require nearly that much emphasis. Your primary instructor should spend your first 8-10 hours of flight training *in an airplane* teaching you the basics of aircraft control using all of your senses -- "seat of the pants" skills that can't be learned in a simulator! Purchasing a home simulator is completely unnecessary, unless you want to practice navigation and set the stage for further instrument training -- which you can do just as easily with MS FlightSimX and a joystick.
I would say that $20K for 60-75 hours of flight training, when you can do the flight sim and DVD's on your own, is simply outrageous. School Two's plan of $7-8K might be a bit optimistic, unless you're in the Tomahawk, but is probably closer to reality. Their classroom-based groundschool can be a great motivator to keep you studying, and you can still have one-on-one briefings with your CFI. Flying 3-4 days a week is a good goal, but 2-3 days per week is probably more realistic for most folks. More aircraft on the line will mean more scheduling flexibility, and more options to move up to as you gain experience.
As for choosing which airplane to start in, I would steer you toward the Warrior/Archer over the Tomahawk -- you will have better radios and nav equipment, and be in a better position to move up to more complex airplanes as soon as you get your certificate. For the future missions you describe, you will probably want to move right on to your instrument rating -- let your CFI know this, and he or she can start laying the foundation for that rating early on, especially in terms of GPS.
Besides the cost, the most glaring difference between these two schools, as you've briefly described them here, is being assigned a CFI (or being rotated through their schedule) vs. "careful matching" with an instructor -- Choosing the right CFI for yourself is really far more important than the school itself. Consider that you will be spending all those hours in a very small and often intense environment with this guy (or gal). If you can establish good communication and trust, your learning will progress very quickly. Without that rapport, it won't -- simple as that. Plus, it probably won't be much fun.
Take the discovery flights, and maybe go up with and/or interview other CFI's until you find one you can work well with. A few hours rental will be well worth the investment, and you'll end up enjoying earning your certificate that much more. If you enjoy your flight training, the thoroughness will come easily.
Hope this is helpful -- good luck with your flying!
-- Jane Carpenter, February 27, 2009
"Many CFIs will be happy to instruct you for free in order to build hours or simply enjoy a day in the air."It's makes me ill when people suggest this. I don't so much have a problem with the guy trying to get ahead by offering his services on the cheap as I do with the *censored* [client] trying to take advantage of said instructor. The total cost of your dual received will be peanuts compared to the acquisition cost of the aircraft. For the love of all that is holy do not ask a qualified and competent pilot to provide his/her services for nothing. I know too many folks right now who'd love to make a couple hundred bucks just to buy some groceries.
-- Jason Hackney, March 5, 2009
"Many CFIs will be happy to instruct you for free in order to build hours or simply enjoy a day in the air."Philip, I have to agree with Jason on this 100%. In fact, it is this flippant and contemptuous attitude -- that instructors are just there for the time-building -- that keeps CFI's at the lower rungs of the aviation pay scale, and gives good dedicated instructors a bum rap. Perhaps you never spent much time on that rung, or you might be inclined to promote that good CFI's not only deserve *but earn* every dollar the market will bear.
If you want something cheap, you get something cheap. If on the other hand, you want thorough, safety-oriented training (as to which Mr Rauch has wisely inquired), you will want the services of a professional instructor. There are many ways to defray the costs of flight training, but perpetuating the notion that CFI's are just in it for "a day in the air" should not be one of them. (After all, one of the many ways to defray the costs of continued flight training *is to become a CFI!*)
As to the training aircraft, I'm sure the point you were trying to make was that a student might *buy* a trainer more cost-effectively than paying that outrageous flight school estimate for a PPL. However, I'm not sure I would ever put my family in a $20K Archer. The cheapest one I could find on Trade-a-Plane, with no damage history, was a '74 model at $40K. The only one cheaper (damage history unknown) was $37K.
-- Jane Carpenter, March 5, 2009
Philip Greenspun (philg@mit.edu) responded to a message you requested notification for in the Aviation bboard:Subject: Response to Choosing a flight school
Jason, Jane (below): Nobody would be more delighted than I if the market-clearing wage for a CFI were $1000 per hour. Remember that I have a CFI, CFII, and CFI-H. However, $1000 is not the market-clearing wage for a CFI right now. It is not productive to talk about what a worker deserves (except maybe in government, health care, and other portions of our new planned economy) because employers don't pay what a worker deserves. They pay a wage sufficient to attract a worker.
Jane: You're looking at Trade-a-Plane to see what planes are worth? Those prices are owners' fantasies and represent what the plane might have sold for in 2007. A friend recently purchased a reasonably modern Piper Warrior with a Garmin 430 and a brand-new engine. He paid $35,000, less than what the previous owner had spent on the engine overhaul and the Garmin. He got the airframe for free.
Anyway, Mr. Rauch doesn't even need to buy a whole plane. He could buy a 1/3rd share of a Cessna 172 at his local airport and let his partners recommend some good private instructors. If he feels like paying those instructors the $15-25 per flight hour that a flight school might pay them, he can do that and still not come anywhere near spending $20,000.
Peter: Remember that there are hundreds of regional jet pilots who were recently furloughed by airlines. Nearly all of these guys were active flight instructors until a year or two ago. All of them are going to be very procedure- and detail-oriented or they wouldn't have been hired by their airline. They were only getting paid about $20,000 per year at their old job, so they would be delighted to work for almost any wage.
Hello Philip, Thank you for your prompt reply. I never said (anywhere, ever) that CFI's should be paid $1000 per hour. In fact, I quite specifically said that CFI's should be paid "what the market will bear". They should not be expected to work for free, or for hours logged.
I do know that you have all those letters after your name, as do I (except for the heli, anyway, but then I have my Glider ratings). The question remains -- have you ever had to make an actual Living as an instructor in any aircraft? As for paying "a wage sufficient to attract a worker" -- my suggestion is that your perpetuation of the image of the lowly flight instructor "jus' happy to be in the air" is insulting and ultimately harmful to present and future pilots. Where do you think pilots come from, Philip? Eggs?
As for what airplanes are *worth*, again that is not the question posed. You said "You can buy an Archer for $20K" and for the sake of your readers I begged to differ. If your buddy snagged one for $35K (some folks might say that $35K is considerably more than $20K) -- good for him. Show me a recent Bill of Sale for a good, safe Piper Archer that closed at $20K, and I'll immediately take it all back with apologies all around.
Lastly, even furloughed pilots would like to be paid something for their time giving flight instruction while they wait for the economy to turn around (or not). What world are you living in, Philip, that you would suggest that a good solution to cutting costs earning a pilot's license is to ask someone who has already earned (and paid for) theirs, to work for "almost any wage"?
How do you make your living, Philip? I suggest you take 10% of your paycheck and buy a clue.
-- Jane Carpenter, March 6, 2009
Hello Philip, Thank you for your prompt reply. I never said (anywhere, ever) that CFI's should be paid $1000 per hour. In fact, I quite specifically said that CFI's should be paid "what the market will bear". They should not be expected to work for free, or for hours logged.I do know that you have all those letters after your name, as do I (except for the heli, anyway, but then I have my Glider ratings). The question remains -- have you ever had to make an actual Living as an instructor in any aircraft? As for paying "a wage sufficient to attract a worker" -- my suggestion is that your perpetuation of the image of the lowly flight instructor "jus' happy to be in the air" is insulting and ultimately harmful to present and future pilots. Where do you think pilots come from, Philip? Eggs?
As for what airplanes are *worth*, again that is not the question posed. You said "You can buy an Archer for $20K" and for the sake of your readers I begged to differ. If your buddy snagged one for $35K (some folks might say that $35K is considerably more than $20K) -- good for him. Show me a recent Bill of Sale for a good, safe Piper Archer that closed at $20K, and I'll immediately take it all back with apologies all around.
Lastly, even furloughed pilots would like to be paid something for their time giving flight instruction while they wait for the economy to turn around (or not). What world are you living in, Philip, that you would suggest that a good solution to cutting costs earning a pilot's license is to ask someone who has already earned (and paid for) theirs, to work for "almost any wage"?
How do you make your living, Philip? I suggest you take 10% of your paycheck and buy a clue.
-- Jane Carpenter, March 6, 2009
Hi Peter,I moved down to Austin from New York last January for work and soon after started working toward my private in a new DA40 with Streamline Aviation out of KAUS. In short, the experience was great - the instructors were patient, scheduling was flexible and the progression of lessons was well-organized. Unless you live up north and Georgetown will be an easier commute, it would probably be worthwhile to check them out as flying out of the busy controlled field will likely pay dividends over time and the late model Diamonds with the G1000 system might be a closer match to the high-performance plane you want to eventually purchase. Cost is about half way between the two options you mentioned (I think I spent a total of about $15k) and last I heard they were perusing 141 cert.
Contact me directly if you'd like to discuss further.
Kevin
-- Kevin J Warner, March 6, 2009
Peter, I have about 4000 hours of dual given (cfii meii rotorcraft and gold seal), and I own a flight school in Loveland Colorado. You are on the right track shopping around, make sure too that you try a couple of instructors before settling on one. Many students get a second rate instructor, but don't know the difference, because it's the only one they've flown with. As for buying your own airplane and stealing an instructor for free, bad idea! Well buying your own plane can work but if you plan to get something bigger, renting to see what you like is good, plus selling a cheap plane is going to be as hard for you, as it was for, the person you bought it from. Free instructors however don't want the job they are getting, the pay sucks, and stress is high. The new ones are inexperienced, and the airline pilots are pissed, and may not have been that great an instructor to begin with. Remember that flying better equipment doesnﾒt make you a better pilot; in fact the opposite is usually true. I hope this helps, good luck, and remember do have fun no matter what you decide.
-- Patrick Hinton, March 6, 2009
Thanks for all the contributions so far. I still welcome additional comments. I certainly didn't expect to raise the spirited debate in this thread.From the potential student's point of view, this is not about trying to do this on the cheap. My number one priority has been to do it right and find a program and instructor to meet my needs. There are clearly several options. I don't mind in the least compensating someone for safe and competent instruction. My question was really about seeking insight into value vs. cost.
Engineer that I am, I built a spreadsheet based on realistic time, likely training aircraft and other costs to compare the programs. The 141 school comes up to around $13K, still less expensive, but more realistic than their ~$6K number. Big deltas are one-on-one ground instruction at a higher rate vs a classroom, higher hourly CFI rate (~$60 vs~$40) and wet rental rate for similar aircraft (OK, newer vs ﾑmatureﾒ aircraft of same class) ~$170 vs ~$110.
Based on feedback from multiple sources, Iﾒm scheduling airtime with multiple instructors to find the right fit in the cockpit. After 3 or 4 flights where Iﾒm certain to have some repeat instruction based on different personalities, Iﾒll settle on one individual and press onward. Granted this may ﾑcostﾒ me a bit of extra time and expense but Iﾒll move forward knowing Iﾒve made a reasonably intelligent choice thatﾒs best for me and my family. If Iﾒm most comfortable with the 61 schoolﾒs instruction, then its worth the extra cost and sim time. If not, Iﾒll steer clear.
-- Peter Rauch, March 6, 2009
Wow!Just some quick points...
1) Be careful with those airline furloughees, the vast majority of those guys left instructing because they were completely burned out and couldn't take it anymore. Those guys/gals were in it [flight instruction] to build time. Find someone who loves to teach/instruct and you'll find it contagious.
2) $15 to $25 for an instructor! Are you kidding me? That's circa 1990! I don't know what to say. Just a few years ago, when I stopped actively instructing I was undercutting EVERYONE on the field by charging $40 an hour. And I was living in a city that probably had [still does, I'm sure--they still haven't furloughed] the largest concentration of pilots per capita than any other city in the world.
3) I don't know about the simulator making you a better pilot-- personally, I think pc sims CAN reinforce bad motor skills and should be used with caution or with the proper guidance, but I am going to wholeheartedly recommend that if you are going to put yourself AND your family in the plane DO NOT SKIMP ON QUALITY INSTRUCTION! AND get an instrument rating. I wouldn't care so much about the instrument rating if you were only going to fly locally. Since you're planning on 500 to 700 mile trips, do yourself a favor and get the rating. I don't want to read the next VFR into IMC report from the NTSB and wonder if it was you.
4) The best thing you can do is fly, fly, fly. Get out and do it. The more the better.
Peter, I wish you the best and hope to hear how you make out with the discovery flights. Only you will be able to decide which place is right for you.
P.S. I have fond memories of the Tomahawk. I did a lot of training in that plane including my spin training. I'm curious, do you know if the engine in that plane is 112 HP or 125 HP? I've always wanted to get one and mod the bejeepers out of it.
All the best...
-- Jason Hackney, March 6, 2009
. Simulator training is of no value for the Private certificate. Save your simulator time and energy for instrument training and emergency training in jets.I'm just not I agree. I'm just not sure I agree. Flying in busy airspace, even VFR, does require a fair bit of radio adjustment. If you are using a Garmin, or any glass, the time in the sim will help on the button work, which can be overwhelming at first. The emergence procedure practice is also a benefit, though wear a headset so you canﾒt cheat and hear the circuit breakers pop outﾅ No use for landing and takeoff, but if it is a full cockpit sim I find it a help,
-- fabio savoldelli, March 17, 2009