From a Millennial friend on Facebook:
It happened to me. And he was one of my best friends. And we’d been drinking. And we’d slept in the same bed plenty of times before. And that night we’d even made out until I said I wanted to stop because I didn’t want to ruin our friendship. And when I woke up in the middle of the night to him f**king me, I froze. And in the morning; I made him breakfast. And for the rest of the school year we were friends. And sometimes more than friends. And one day, months later, on the phone, I blurted out in the middle of an unrelated conversation that the sex that first time had not been consensual. That I had not wanted it. And he said, “thank you for telling me.” And we went on as before. And that fall, he showed up at my apartment, crying, and sat down on the floor, and told me that I had ruined his life. And after that I only spoke to him one more time, and I told him he was a monster.
And then my whole world blew up. I was a wreck for a long time. Sometimes I still am. And my anger is corrosive. Sometimes if feels like it is eating me alive.
I’m tired of hearing how the victims are ruining the lives of men like Kavanaugh. I am fucking exhausted by the willful ignorance of nearly all the GOP senators. Believe me. Believe us. We are trying desperately to tell you something. Listen.
#ibelieveher
I wonder what the generally elderly senators (from either party) would do differently if they did hear this story…
I assume that you’re looking forward to comments that insult this young woman.
Why should she be insulted? The modern response is that her anger and concerns are valid. Since I am a believer in gender equality, to me #ibelieveher is as important as #ibelievehim. She presents herself as an insecure person who isn’t quite sure what she wants. That is a recipe for creating a misunderstanding (as a side note, haven’t you heard countless women bitching about men sending mixed signals? turns out they don’t like that either). Dude could have thought he had consent. We don’t know.
I won’t insult this woman, but I will insult the feminists who told her the world works this way and that men and women see sexual anything in the same ways.
Just google Camille Paglia hookup culture and start reading.
What would the generally elderly senators do differently?
Sex would have been very different.
Interesting that the comments so far take it for granted that the quote is by a woman.
Lord P: You’ve busted them for their cisgender-normative and hetereonormative prejudice. Bravo!
Drinking. Both of them apparently.
In bed together.
There are very few times in life where these conditions resulted in a good outcome for all involved.
Remind your daughters that nothing good happens after the bars close.
“and [he] told me that I had ruined his life” because… 1. he wanted a relationship and you didn’t? 2.You made a public accusation of sexual assault? 3. He had internal shame over the private sexual assault comment? I’d bet on #1
“I told him he was a monster” because…
“And then my whole world blew up” because….
“We are trying desperately to tell you something” and that would be?
You can give the children facebook, but the educational system can’t teach them to write…
A modest proposal: Perhaps sexual behavior can be immoral even if it is “consensual.” One could go so far as to argue that the concept of consent if not very meaningful(this isn’t a relocation motion) unless you want to end up with the story in the Propaganda Times(formerly known as the New York Times) entitled “I gave consent to sex but not to ghost”.
Mike has stolen my lines. Alcohol involved: no sympathy from me!
Now I know what it was like during the civil rights movement. People refusing to face reality, common sense, and grave injustice. Several commenters here essentially falling back on the: she’s a whore and it’s her fault position. How 1800’s of you all. This is one step removed from holding the women responsible for straight up rape that still goes on in India and the middle east. Some guy thought it was okay to have sex with with an unconscious person, without past or present consent, and people are defending that. Amazing. What other examples in society make it okay to take something of that magnitude based on assumption?
Senorpablo, as I said above. Alcohol. Both of them.
Taken as written. She claims not to have given consent. How do we know that he was aware of what he was doing?
Assuming no one forced her to drink, where does responsibility lie? If the woman has no responsibility are you not claiming that women are incapable of taking care of themselves? That they need protection?
I also like tj’s line of thinking. There is a lot of missing information.
She sure sounds like a dimwit, first for getting into the situation and then publicizing it to garner sympathy. Anyway, a few years ago I had a stern discussion with my i don’ know 12 or 13 year old son to try to explain the idea of consent in these situations and how there may be ambiguity and he could get into a lot of trouble if there was and someone decided to make something out of it. He looked at me puzzled and asked why people did not just agree in writing before having sex so there would be no ambiguity. Guess he was a little young for the discussion.
@Senorpablo The Koran tells women in the middle east to get drunk, choose to share a bed with a random drunk guy, and then write about what happened on Facebook?
Jack: Pretty soon these feminists will get really crazy and demand they get it in writing, go before a notary, file it with a court and then proclaim it in front of both of their families!
Senorpablo, as I said above. Alcohol. Both of them.
Taken as written. She claims not to have given consent. How do we know that he was aware of what he was doing?
Plenty of guys would go along with this reasoning. I was drunk. I can’t be held responsible. Unfortunately, it doesn’t make any sense. If a person broke into your house and stole valuable items, I don’t think that you’d care if he was drunk.
Assuming no one forced her to drink, where does responsibility lie? If the woman has no responsibility are you not claiming that women are incapable of taking care of themselves? That they need protection?
If there was no consent, that’s all that matters.
@Jack, your son is wise beyond his age. I actually do mean it. Damn smart kid, pity that the reasonable approach (agree beforehand what the plan is) requires planning faculties above and beyond most people. Hopefully your son will grow up in a person who does realise unfortunate things might happen if he is not proactive deciding what happens when — the future is born in the decisions taken in the present.
@Vince, you are correct in full. Yet people do judge those who make any mistake in the course of actions that lead to their misfortune.
If you leave your house after securing it (whatever this might mean where you live), and someone breaks in anyway, people will be sympathetic. If you leave your house and fail to secure it, and someone walks in and steals your stuff, people will say you are an idiot.
Yet, aside it is is better for yourself, why should one take any precaution, from a moral standpoint? not taking precautions does not mean asking to be a victim. Yet we normally have to fight the urge to tell victims ‘you are idiots’ if they made even a small mistake in their judgement, which we might interpret as making thing easier for their misfortune. I know no answer to this impulse, but it is a real thing, and it does cloud judgment.
In case people find it difficult to reconcile my previous two posts, nothing would have stopped the young man in the story to stop and simply tell the girl ‘you want friendship, I want sex. I see both as compatible. So, we can stay friends and have sex, or not have sex but not be friends — these are the options *I* am happy with. What do *you* think?’, and just stay or get out on the spot depending on the answer. A really smart man would have stated his position and asked the question before alcohol was consumed.
Col. Putin recommends: go study Kozma Prutkov’s writings.
Prutkov wrote on Wikiquote, Most things in life are misunderstood not because our ideas are weak, but because those things lie well beyond our circle of ideas.
Please, please, please, stop insulting the intellect of feminists!!! You are simply advancing their cause.
Any reasonable human being will tell you that being extreme about anything is a sickness.
Anonymous, #21:
But… would they be able to understand it?
You won’t insult an oak tree by saying it’s got a thick cork.
Then again, they can get upset for no reason. So, why not let them just go…(hm) vote for Democratic Socialists.
Never-ever argue with a liberal: just vote for the cause you care. As for the rest, there is always the riot police force and the 2nd Amendment.
This could end up well for your Millennial friend. Once she ends up divorced with 2 kids at 40, the tables will turn and she can be the Monster. Payback time. A drunk 19 year old male has nothing on a 40 year old divorced female when it comes to sexual aggression and predatory behavior. I can’t even go to the gym without getting unwanted touching from one of the divorced moms trying to offset the effects of age.
Women are evil and men are stupid.
The old adage still applies.
Success is all about vigilance these days. Over 25% of American women are taking psychotropic drugs for their mental disorders. Take heed.
Mike, you’re cherry picking the facts. They were both drinking–you accept that one fact, and you then begin to re-write the rest of the story in a way that defends and justifies the males behavior while blaming the women. Unbelievable. The story wasn’t for you to judge. It was the behavior described in the story, as told, that’s important. The rush to whoredom just highlights the reason why this sort of atrocious behavior still goes on today. The first step is for people like you to stop justifying rape. Drinking doesn’t make rape okay any more than it does driving under the influence. As a society, we need to be clear: don’t have sex unless you have clear consent, especially with a new partner. It’s that simple. Don’t be that person who thinks it’s still okay to drive without a seatbelt because it’s not fun.
I am 69, went to college in the early 70’s and was pretty socially active. My son is 26 and just graduated from 7 years of college, also pretty active.
I never shared a bed with a women who I wasn’t actively romantically involved with. It never occurred to me. I would have went home first. Tended to plan my evenings accordingly, that is if I wasn’t going to have sex, I’d leave by midnight.
My son, on the other hand, seems to regularly sleep with women who he is not intimate with. This stops when he is in a committed relationship, but otherwise he stays over with women who are simply friends fairly regularly. If I had to guess I would say fear of DUI’s has something to do with this social change but what do I know? Nevertheless, there seems to be a lot more bed sharing of drunk people who are supposedly not intimate. Its not surprising that a lot of misunderstandings occur.
“then begin to re-write the rest of the story in a way that defends and justifies the”
The story as presented was pretty bizarre to begin with.
An idea for a start-up:
HD Camcorder implants (forehead), with a microphone of course, permanently streaming to a secure server.
“for the rest of the school year we were friends. And sometimes more than friends.”
It sounds like she had sex with him again.
If that’s true, why did she have sex with someone she calls a “monster?”
Senorpablo and Vince, the crux of our disagreement is that I don’t accept what I think is your definition of rape.
And I drive without a seatbelt all the time.
Airbags!
I might also explain that I hold myself at least partially responsible for all that goes wrong in my life. I also frequently give credit to others for the good that happens.
This attitude has limited my success in the corporate realm.
Senorpablo and Vince, the crux of our disagreement is that I don’t accept what I think is your definition of rape
Discussing a definition of a word is a distraction at this point. The main point is the morality of what the guy did.
At first I thought this was satire, but then the last paragraph. And I read it again and understood him/her even less.
What Mark said.
Also listen to closely her story (and notice what she omits – like Dr. Professor Ford what she omits is as important as what she says.
1. Both parties consume alcohol.
2. Get in bed together and “make out”. Male is surely stimulated, female “friendzones” him, but allows him to remain in her bed. State of dress not specified. I believe that Ghandi as an old man used to have naked women sleep with him but would not have sex with them as a test of his self-restraint. Apparently all 19 year old men today are supposed to be as saintly as Ghandi.
3.Probably both sleep for a while, male wakes up and realizes that his urges have not gone away and decides to try again.
4. She claims to have been asleep when coitus commences. I suppose it is possible to have sex with a woman who is fully asleep (and not have her wake up for some time) but I find this part of the story not credible. More likely she is sort of half asleep and her lizard brain likes what is happening and cooperates.
5. She suddenly awakens fully and her conscious brain realizes that coitus is in progress. Does she yell stop, what are you doing? Jump out of bed and run into the bathroom? Ask him to leave? Call the police? No, none of the above. She is “frozen”. How is lover boy to know that she is not consenting at that point? Mind reading? She is vague on what happens next – presumably they keep going until completion and then go back to sleep. I’ll bet her male friend could give more details as to what she said and did and I’ll bet it was anything but “frozen”.
6. In the morning, she makes lover boy breakfast – cooking a meal is a sign that they are still friends, that he has done nothing to betray the friendship. She says nothing about being raped at this point either. Again I’ll bet the male friend could testify that she said many nice things.
7. Indeed the friendship continues and they have more (clearly consensual) sexual encounters later. She continues to date her rapist and never indicates to him that she considers their first encounter to have been rape.
8. Some months later she indicates for the 1st time that their first encounter was non-consensual and she retroactively considers her friend/lover to now be a rapist. He is upset at being accused of retroactive rape (and possibly concerned that he is going to face legal consequences or expulsion and having his entire life ruined and/or realizes that he has been dating a woman who is sorta nuts and cannot be relied upon not to do crazy things like accuse him of retroactive rape.)
I’m not sure why Vince keeps coming here, but I’m not going to make fun of the poster. However, that she made him breakfast the next morning and that she continued to F him as the semester progressed leads me to not have much sympathy for her.
> I’m not sure why Vince keeps coming here
I am not sure how this is important. I disagree with most of his postings myself, but how is that relevant?
Why not let him express his views as long as it’s done in a civil manner, which is how he always does it.
I don’t have an opinion of his motivation to post here, but that is his choice and is not of any particular interest to me.
If purportedly we want the sexes treated equally, why are the men blamed when two drunk people have sex?
Also, for the ones calling for written consent, remember that consent can be withdrawn at any point, even if given initially.
remember that consent can be withdrawn at any point, even if given initially.
More importantly, “at any time” is not limited to before or during the act in question. There have been many cases where consent was withdrawn days, months or even years later. This is completely consistent with the New Rules, which state, just as you say, that “consent may be withdrawn at ANY time”.