Kinda makes me feel a whole lot better about giving up science altogether after failing calculus twice.
-- Bill Robertson, March 13, 1997
in my younger years, there were two offers to stay in the academic world to get my Ph.D. i declined them both. now i know that there is a guardian angel who works for me!
-- roland a. ziegler, April 15, 1997
I became very depress and suicidal after reading your page...Thanks
-- Trent N., April 18, 1997
It's only depressing to those who insist on working for companies. Anyone who goes freelance will be loved and wanted. I did and I'm glad.
-- Steve Rapaport, May 8, 1997
I agree with your viewpoint. However, salaries in the private sector follow market economies and their demands. It can be intellectually rewarding or used to justify another end, photography perhaps :)? Limited grant opportunities create an 'artificial' oversupply of research-PhDs exploring new ideas, granters expecting no return on investment as its knowledge enters the 'public domain'. The path you choose depend on your values, I see the private sector offering the flexibility to choose paths once achieving financial independence. Scientists in education need to teach an alternative funding model, and addressing a private sector has been a solution. There are many noted and financially successful R&D teams at IBM, Microsoft and Apple, and many biotechnology companies hungry for biological scientists with a caveat: computer savvy a must.Wonderful site!
-- Marvin Gozum, September 28, 1997
Originally I discovered your pages searching informations for large format photography, which should be commented separately. But, as I am working in the department of mechanical engineering of our university as a former mathematician addicted to mechanical design and computer science, I'm also interested in the activities, opinions, etc of my collegues worldwide (more or less, of course). To say it loud and clear: The situation in Germany looks quite similar to your version of salary decline and politicians statements. In the last four years, the number of beginners in our department reduced to about 25% (we have now about 100 first semester students). There MUST be a shortage of engineers... However, our society does not seem to be very interested in technical personnel. From the viewpoint of salaries, our magic two letters (Dr.!) are useful for lawyers, chemists, sometimes business men (as a kind of seriosity flag), but not for engineers. To get a Ph.D. in engineering is uneconomical. You need five years additional trainig for perhaps additional 2500 - 5000 DM per year.
-- Hans-Peter Pruefer, November 6, 1997
Many years ago, I started with a major in physics, figuring I'd get a PhD in either particle physics or cosmology. Calculus wasn't 2nd nature to me, though, and (being too conceited to consider applied science or (ugh!) engineering), I somehow ended up in social science multi-disciplinary, law, and a career writing tax regulations for IRS. "Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?"
-- Keith Stanley, December 29, 1997
Your perspectives were interesting but surely pessimistic.... While I have no formal post High School education, I have applied my desire to succeed in the computer industry quite profitably. Through considerable personal sacrifice and long hours, I have developed practical technical skills in everything from UNIX to NT. I have always been prepared todo, and have done, what the average person would not. As a result, there is no shortage of companies whom would be pleased to aquire the use of my talents. As a partner in Michigan's 13th fastest privately held corporation, I specialize in integrating computer technology into our customers business practices. We do this with the knowledge, that application of technology can enhance the ability of a business to achieve it's goals. I have met many people who have had the benefit of top notch formal academic backgrounds, whom lack the ability or desire to translate their technical knowledge and skills into information that can be absorbed by the average executive. You know, the person with the power, i.e... MONEY. Remember, The MARKET PLACE PAYS FOR VALUE. So I guess the real question is "what value did I bring to the marketplace today"? I am personally looking for skilled and personable computer engineers who like solving problems, like to have fun, can do what they say they will, and enjoy makeing money doing it. Persons who apply their skills solving business problems, get rewarded commensurate to the problems they solve.. Good luck... I'm still looking.
-- Jeff Selser, January 19, 1998
An academic study shows that the software industry routinely discriminates against older programmers, preferring to hire younger people who work long hours for lower salaries.Have a look: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html.
-- Dan Boyd, May 1, 1998
Poverty forced me to deviate from pursuit of my PhD in Physics and take a job as a repairman at a phone company. I learned very quickly that a skilled union job pays far better than any job availible to most Physics PhDs. And if one puts in anywhere near the time required for a thesis into overtime you are rewarded with an income approaching 6 figures. It is amazing to me that those of us who build and maintain the net are compensated far better than most of those who provide its content. Goodbye academia forever!
-- Bob Cunico, August 20, 1998
From Thailand ( South East Asia )May be right , But for develop country I don't belive in your idea. Thank you
-- gangglar Chaysrewan, February 20, 1999
For non academic engineers, the median earnings flat from 1979-1989 at about $42,000/year.However, at the time of writing, the
The median salary for non-academic Ph.D. engineers ($58,000) and Ph.D. math/computer scientists ($52,000) continue to significantly outstrip the median for Ph.D.s of all occupations ($43,000).
-- Will Sargent, February 20, 1999
The three best things I ever did in my life (besides the wife and kids)a) Did not pursue a PhD in Geophysics in '81
b) Quit working as an employee in '85 and started working as a contractor (software dev.)
c) Bought Cisco stock early in the 90s.
Yep. Maybe when I hit that bit $3E+6 I'll go back and get a PhD in Computer Science doing internetworking, but believe, research doesn't pay worth a damn. I worked as a contractor at JPL a while back, and while it was a fun job, the pay sucked big time -even for a contractor.
I even worked with a number of MIT AI guys. Sharp, funny and damn broke.
PHDs are most definitely not Yuppy material.
Tony
-- tony esporma, February 25, 1999
ALL THAT IS PRESENT IN THIS SITE IS !TRUE
-- naveen reddy, February 27, 1999
Although I have not thoroughly glanced thru this site, I thought I would comment anyway. I graduated from college in '94 with a BS(equivilent of BullShit) in Medical Laboratory Technology only to be thrust into a field of work, contrary to my guidance counselor's observations, that was overcrowded and doesn't pay worth a damn($17,000-$25,000). I liked my work but it didn't pay the bills, but it did offer long hours of hard work, very little vacation time, poor medical benefits and the promise of no further advancement without more wasted education.... Consequently, now I am employed as a waitress in a local bar. I still only make enough money to pay the bills, BUT... I have convenient hours, steady work, no hard labor, medical and dental benefits(though I have huge deductions) and plenty of vacation time when I ask for it. I chose the 'customer service' field, or rather it chose me, while I was earning my degree as an MLT. All in all, it wasn't such a bad idea. There will always be a market for waitresses because there will always be a market for BEER! I am by no means an analyst, but here are my findings. At any given time after 6pm, in any given bar, in any given city with a population of 100,000 or more, you can find the following: a doctor, several(5 or more) lawyers, 5-10 steel workers and/or construction workers, a couple of comp. info. specialists, a fair share(2.. fair to whom... I don't know) of women(for whatever reasons), 2 each of the following:stockbrokers, insurance salesmen, car salesmen, gas station attendants, taxi drivers, policemen, and 15-20 from the non working class(i.e. College Students, housewives and homeless). That is 47-77 drinking customers. Supposing that the average tip of the bills is 15% and the average bill is $25(beer and food...we have some heavy drinkers here in St. Louis) that equals out to $3.75 per customer plus my hourly wage of a measly $2.51(10 hour shifts=$25.10). For this example I will use the 47 patrons, supposing it is a slow evening.... 47x$3.75=$176.25 so I net $201.35 per day working as a waitress. I send 26% of my pay to Uncle Sam: $52.31. I take home $149.04 per day multiplied by 5 days equals $745.20 per week. $745.20x50weeks=$37,260. Get that? $37,260 per year to pay my rent, car payments, insurances, good, gas, clothing... etc. etc. Why on earth did I need a $50,000 education to work in a field that I don't use my degree and make more money? Degrees may look good on paper but paper doesn't pay the bills. So the next time, some chic is slapping a cold brewski down on your table don't automatically assume she is just "working her way thru" whatever. She may have made the smart decision to cash in on a commodity that will always be there.... human oppression.
-- Sharon Davidson, March 15, 1999
I'm a college dropout (actually, "required to withdraw" from Tufts), and I've managed to flunk freshman English nearly ten times. But I'm making $75,000 a year as a computer programmer, using virtually nothing I ever was taught in my computer science courses.Moral of the story: forget about degrees, it's accomplishment that counts.
Sorry, I have to go because my non-technical boss will fire me if I surf the Internet any more today.
-- Ed Poor, March 30, 1999
My opinion of the current state of affairs for programmers is the following: learn how to combine your analytic skills to solve both technical and business related problems simultantaneously and businesses (including management) will have no choice to listen to you and compensate you accordingly or be stubborn and lose their talent to companies that are adopting better working conditions for the people responsible for their IT infrastructure.Because the Internet has leveled the playing field, companies that can combine excellent customer service with superior technical prowess will gain market share from "established companies" that have turned a blind eye and are calling all of this technology "a fad".
Remember, do not rely on your manager to tell you what you are worth. Read the classifieds, watch ZDTV (unpaid promotion), stay informed. Do not rely on your company training you. Make suggestions but also take matters into your own hands. In other words, carve your own destiny and sooner or later you will be rewarded. Obviously this is a consultant frame of mind but it has allowed me to have a comfortable lifestyle with minimal political pressures to bow down to. It's just my opinion for what it's worth. :>)
-- Jeff Marin, April 13, 1999
The trainer of the omega monkey should have trained the monkey to withhold operation of the food machine until he was at least granted equal access as the alphas, to the female monkeys. Train the monkey to give a few free "demos", then when alphas wanted more, the omega could use appropriate sign language re the females. Repeat as required. :)
-- Dave Bean, April 21, 1999
Well, I pursued a degree in chemical engineering back a few years ago and I'm pretty happy with the out come. Diligent budgeting and a boost from Dow Jones has my current net worth over $1 millon smackers. My son,with a degree in computer science, did computer work for 15 years, worked hard for MCI and got laid-off, at his instance, in February. His net worth is $2+ million at age 38 and he may not ever need to work again.He tells me that there are 40,000 high tech jobs in the Washington DC area that are currently unfilled. Get out of Boston and look arround!
Bitching doesn't do it. Working and looking for opportunities does!!
-- Gene Crumpler, May 4, 1999
People wonder why so few US citizens want to be engineering Ph.D. students. It is the same reason they don't want to be migrant farm workers.Low pay, long hours, better opportunities elsewhere.
On the other hand, if the only way I could legally work in the US was for minimum wage programming computers or running tedious experiments, well then it would be an easy choice. Good thing our immigration laws make it impossible for bright young foreigners to do anything else.
When jobs like clothing sweatshops and strawberry picking are taken only by recent immigrants, we immediately blame the working conditions. When it's grad school, we blame the students.
-- Brian Krause, May 13, 1999
I've read this article(missive?), Mr. Greenspun, as well as the reader comments that follow, and all I can say is... WAAH! If you folks didn't know what you were getting into one, two, four, six, ten, whatever number of years ago when you entrenched yourself into the academic world, you certainly know the score now. If it's that bad, choose another profession!
I've been there (kind of); I dedicated most of my high school years and my college education towards earning a bachelor's degree in aviation management/flight technology from Florida Institute of Technology, along with virtually every fixed-wing flight rating available short of an ATP. Then I spent two years as a flight instructor making $18K US a year, looking forward to possible commuter pilot positions (which were paying salaries in the low-teens, and which also required new-hires to pay for their own aircraft-specific training -- $10-$15K!).
Meanwhile, my buddies who barely made it out of high school were here in Atlanta approaching $40K doing NT system administration. So I switched careers and quadrupled my income in two years. Go figure :) By the way, I bought Greenspun's book and I loved it.
-- Kristy Smith, May 29, 1999
Surprise Surprise!!! I read this page, GOT TOTALLY DEPRESSED and ditched a $65000/yr offer for a Ph.D. at UC Berkeley.
-- Swami Keggananda, June 5, 1999
I am about to graduate with a BS in Computer Science, now what I am I suppose to do?
-- Vinh Dok, June 10, 1999
My comment on reading this (and similar material) scattered around Phil's site (and especially on reading the reader responses) is that perhaps the real problem here is that people don't know or are unwilling to admit what they want.Some people want to be able to buy a new trophy wife every ten years. Some people want a husband and two kids. Some people want to simply understand all the physics that is already known while other people want to dig really deep into some field of physics and make a contribution. However if you're unwilling to admit what you want, chances are happiness isn't going to just fall into your lap.
The general impression I get from the comments is that the people who are bitter are the people who want money and its accoutrements, but pretended (and perhaps still pretend) to themselves that they wanted knowledge.
If you truly are smart, and want knowledge, this is a glorious time in history to be living. If you're working in a high tech job and saving your pennies rigorously, you can earn enough in five or ten years to retire to a modest lifestyle where you can study all you wish. Certainly this is my plan. (Of course if your definition of rigorous saving is $50 restaurants rather than $250 restaurants, and if you believe you need at least $50 000 a year for a modest lifestyle, perhaps you're kidding yourself about wanting knowledge more than money.)
-- Maynard Handley, June 30, 1999
I must have been a genius to bail out of Graduate School in '82 (before obtaining degree) for a high paying gig in computer graphics (which lead to management.)Now I won't regret leaving at all...
Thanks!
-- Bill Volk, July 9, 1999
Straight out of high school, I got a technical degree (AAS) in Computer Drafting Technology. The area in which I lived at that time had a petrochemical driven economy so with all the contractors serving the plants and refineries in the area, a job was supposed to be easy to find. That didn't happen and as fate would have it, I got a job doing GIS work for a local governmental entity and loved it. While at the governmental entity, I went back to school full-time assuming the completion of at BS would insure a comfortable living. At work, I spent extra time learning software and programming languages of other GIS industry desktop packages because I enjoyed the work and was good at it. However, I never finished the degree (I am maybe 40 hours away). Nevertheless, I was able to find decent jobs working contract labor and working with consulting firms. Along the way, I worked with many highly paid "GIS-educated" individuals whose abilities left much too be desired. In fact, most of the time, I ended up training these coworkers to be useful technically in the workplace. I hold no grudges against these people or against the credentials or competence a degree of any kind may imply. I can just say from experience, that where you are professionally is a result of your decisions and a little luck. Furthermore, a degree will get your foot in more doors, but doesn't mean you'll make the cut once you are there or that you are actually competent and able to do that in which your sheepskin says you are proficient. Nevertheless, I hope to be able to finish my BS in the near future.Five years of various GIS fields of experience later, I turn 26 this month, love my job, have a 55K (GIS analyst) salary, and the GIS industry is hot enough that opportunity still abounds if the company for which I work falls prey to another telecom merger. Barring the dissolution of the company I work for now, I should start completion of my long awaited BS degree in November so I can punch through the glass ceiling I now face as I hope to one day find a management job.
-- Marcus Perez, July 14, 1999
For my entire life, it was hammered into me that we need scientists and engineers. Being a bright and impressionable lad, I was more than happy, willing in fact, to sacrifice my youth on the altar of science and technology- I suppose I enjoyed it. Well, when I finally graduated with a MS in Aerospace Engineering in 1991, I found that since the USSR had packed it in, I was no longer needed urgently. So, I have settled into industry working on this Government missile and then that one. Not really a career for someone who likes to stay busy and be learning all the time. In short, I hate it. Zero creativity. Zero challenge. Level-of-effort (LOE) and chargeability are the order of the day. I'm doing my damnedest to finish my first novel and get it published and get the hell out of this chicken-poop profession. In a phrase, NOT WHAT IT WAS CRACKED UP TO BE... Help me out. Buy my first book! "Technology Transfer" Should be out in 2001.
-- John Brewer, July 19, 1999
I have read everthing here and my reaction is : I love this site!!It amazes me just how many people followed in the same footsteps that I did; out of a major American university graduate program in the physical sciences, into near poverty, and eventually into information technology. My story is not much different from these, no regrets either!
(Here is my personal Yuppy Scum story. Read it only if you have time and boss is on jury duty)
In 1989, I left a Chemistry BA from UC Berkeley (with one course credit to graduate) to enter a graduate school program at Johns Hopkins University in Chemistry. I was heavily involved in advanced materials research back then, having already researched for some of the top names in chemistry as an undergrad.
During my first semester in graduate school, while taking a full load of 5 classes, I wrote my Master's thesis (the proposal for my doctoral work) on Molecular Electronic Devices. It was readily accepted and I defended the proposal at my orals exams in the spring of 1990, without exception. One professor (not on my committee) thought that I "worked too hard on the proposal" and would never accomplish the research within five years. He told me that it would take something like twelve years to complete! That would mean that I would be done just about now...
Fortunately for me, Mother Nature foiled my many attempts to synthesize the key substrate molecule in my thesis, leaving me scrounging around for another project by summer 1991. News of two and three postdoc positions, followed by layoffs of former students from their hard won jobs in the petrochemical field (yuchh!) made me stop and think about what I was doing. Then it hit me like a ton of manure, I had written my own Dewar's profile of Success.
Dewar's Profile: Name: Ivan Singer Occupation: Disillusioned Graduate student/Amateur photographer Goals in Life: To be successful at whatever I put my mind to, get laid in the process, and make enough money to afford to do more photography. Drink: imported Dark Beer in a Dewar's glass
What was left to do? I went pro. Not pro chemist (like my mother thought I wanted), but pro photographer. I bought a medium format camera, printed some business cards, got a business name registered for tax purposes, invoices, rate schedules, lined up vendors for albums, film, processing, and got a promo piece together. I posted them up everywhere and got phone calls. Sure most of the work was black and white headshots and groups, but hey, it was a business and it actually ran, at a constant deficit.
By Summer of 1992, I was asked to leave my research group at Hopkins and I scrambled into an internship position in photography at the Johns Hopkins Biomedical photography program. Of course, anyone who has done "internships" in the university circuit knows that it is a cheap way for slave labor to exist away from the scrutiny of the public eye. This one was no different, long hours working for assholes, with one redeeming benefit: free black and white film, processing and paper. The job, like most jobs in photofinishing, have their plum areas (like the morgue and pathology lab shoots) and the crappy areas (35mm Kodalith Copy slides of books, followed by hours of masking with black tape). Being chained to the copy camera, with your boss telling you that you are not fast enough, accurate enough, nose not brown enough, day after day while wearing a starched collared white shirt reminded me of dreary sweat shop out of the movie "Brazil". Forunately for me again, I was kicked out of that program too for being too "slow at the copy camera". If failure could marry fate, they would give birth to providence. My supervisor said that he envisioned me working at someplace like Dow Chemical. I realized at this point just how much of a professional liability having even a Master's Degree in Chemistry was. Imagine explaining to people that you worked in a photo lab with that you have two degrees in Chemistry and that there were no jobs anymore! It was like saying: "I'm just another lazy university-eduacated SOB, just slumming it while my daddy's trust fund pays for my living expenses. That tiny paycheck at the end of the week is my "fun money"." Meanwhile, I'm cutting a steak up for the week and buying only the vegetables on sale. Three times a year, I would carry my 25lb bags of rice from the Thai grocery from downtown, so that I would always have a meal to eat, even if the photography job market folded the next day.
After another short term custom photo lab job doing copy work, I stopped telling people altogether that I had a "Master's Degree" and it was very freeing. Nobody thought the worse of me for working as a photographer "on the side" while living off $7.50/hr at the lab. When that job was over, I knew I had to change something and being a pro photographer just wasn't cost effective anymore.
So in the winter of 1993/4, I packed up my stuff moved to Boston. Within a month I landed a temp position at Harvard university. Light typing, coffee runs for the "Big guy", and installing diskette copies of Windows 3.11, Microsoft Office, and Word Perfect onto twenty-five PC's was how I got started in IT. I met my wife that summer, biking around town after work, and going to parties.
Four IT jobs, two kids, a pregnant wife, a house in Cambridge, Mass. and some 25 pounds later, here I am: A network analyst for a major financial services firm. I kept my cameras and studio equipment (just in case I needed to go back) and I am now working on a book project about the subway in my spare time. I can't complain about leaving the hard sciences, but I know that terms like "normalize", "transfer rate", "stats" and "flow control" have taken on meaning again, in a real way, without the negative stigma attached either.
I can't fault graduate programs, the economy, or even society's obssession with technology for any hardships I felt making the transition out of Chemistry. I can't even fault my parents for not helping out more in those years. What counts is how you deal with what comes your way. What difference would it make if science could have stayed afloat all these years? The same rules apply: Never give up, Never give in!
Keep up the good work here!
Ivansinger@gis.net
-- Ivan I. Singer, August 6, 1999
The American businessman was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, only a little while. The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time? The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life," The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise." The Mexican fisherman asked, "But how long will this all take?" To which the American replied, "15-20 years." But what then? The American laughed and said that's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stocks to the public and become very rich. You would make millions. Millions? Then what? The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal Fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."- Anonymous
-- Roman Gill, August 11, 1999
The American businessman was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, only a little while. The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time? The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life," The American scoffed, "I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise." The Mexican fisherman asked, "But how long will this all take?" To which the American replied, "15-20 years." But what then? The American laughed and said that's the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stocks to the public and become very rich. You would make millions. Millions? Then what? The American said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal Fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos."Anonymous
-- Roman Gill, August 11, 1999
Some time after acquiring mine, I realised that you have to be smart enough to get a PhD but stupid enough to actually do it...
-- Steve Freeman, August 16, 1999
Everyone gets what they really want. An unemployed PhD--what did he want and did he get it? Probably he wanted the status of being a "doctor." Did he set a goal or have a vision of what he wanted? No? He thought that by gaining a PhD, he would be instantly showered with money? What did he think, or did he think at all, or did he just study the well-worn half-intelligent opiniated dogmas that pass for useful truths in our universities? The only people that you should listen to are those who have a personal interest in your success. What interest do your college professors have in your success? None. Their prime interest is to get the most grants, or a tenure, or whatever perks that are unrelated to the success of their students (in life). College is a conflict of interest for the professors. That is, it is not in their personal interests to give added value to that student--only to pump their head full of... Anyway. I am a firm believer that if you can conceive it, you can achieve it. We need dreamers in this world, and those who will do whatever it takes to get their dreams, not moaners, groaners, whiners etc.
-- Ed Barrowes, September 9, 1999
I appreciated finding this page at this time as it has occurred to me recently that perhaps saying to a high school student who is near or at the top of his class "Go off to Engineering/Medical/Law School to compete against others at the tops of their classes so that you may work in a field crowded with others as smart or smarter than you" is a Bad Thing and that perhaps it is better and kinder to give this advice "Find a field that you enjoy, in which you can make a living, and also in which you have a clear advantage over the majority of those already in that field".
-- Peter Holt Hoffman, September 14, 1999
I would just like to say that I was thinking about becoming an engineer in computers..Now i'm thinking that I don't know what I want to do? I mean is it right for me to think about changing what I want to do for the rest of my life because I see a site like this? Everyone's opinion or what they catch on life is not always how it is everywhere. Is it? I really have nothing else that i'm good at. I love computers and I love putting things together. I was hoping to start out my working life in something around those subjects. What should I do now? I'm literally asking..what should I do? Anyone have any ideas? I think i'm more confused now then I was before I started looking for a profession. It's scary when you see something like this on-line and you get something else from a teacher or a book. I don't know what to believe? I know that both of them are true. But which one is the one that will affect me in the least..and the most? I guess I would just like to say that I hope this will not happen to me and that I will be able to chose a profession that will support me and my family in the future comings.
-- Julie Wilcox, September 15, 1999
I laughed so much I didn't notice that the tears were real.Yes, I'm in the last stages of an Oxford DPhil.
Of course, Philip, you now have your doctorate, which makes you the exception to the rule. Unsurprising, since you did it the "wrong" way: book first, then the thesis...
-- Nick Sweeney, September 30, 1999
So this grad student calls a taxi to take him to a bar. "We're finally getting our PhD's and we're celebrating!" says the student. "I'll bet your real excited", says the cabbie. "I remember how exciting it was when I got my PhD!""If I want a PhD I'll hire one!" - Rockefeller
Joe
-- Joeseph Staln, October 5, 1999
In industry, one is paid to do things that are so valuable to the society that other people are actually willing to fork out their cash for it.In academia, one attempts to do research into things that are so interesting to you that you are willing to stay up late to do it.
Why are you surprised to discover that society does not reward you for doing what you want?
-- Leo Bellantoni, October 11, 1999
As an mechanical engineer (designer, project manager) who works damn hard, I still get a sense of accomplishment that most people just either don't understand or care about. But then my projects (wind tunnel models) rarely last longer than 12 weeks and each one is different. Most of my friends back in England graduated as Electronic engineers, and as a result are doing quite a better than me financially, but I still think I made the better choice. Ask me if I made the right choice in a few years time when my friends are retiring at 55, and I'm still working at 65, then I may not be so circumspect.
-- david cam, October 14, 1999
Career's are funny things. Right now I'm making more money than I ever dreamed possible in college, and not really enjoying it at all!I have a master's degree in (of all things) Public Policy Science (SUNY Stony Brook 81), which is a combination of applied math and econometrics. Of course this did me about as much good as my bachelors degree in Education (Wisconsin '78) once I moved to the SF Bay Area.
I'm slightly ashamed to say, I'm now a bloodsucking yuppy scum who makes a living doing contract programming. Some days I wish I would have stuck with Policy Science (is that an oxymoron or what!??).
The main reason I've turned to technology as an occupation is my long experience during college and graduate school, when the US Economy was not what it could have been. I was almost one of those cab driving PhD's.
My friend Paul Steinert, (a former MIT Masters student and now a PhD), put it this way: "Graduate School is all work and no pay".
My tinkering in Economics led me to a job at Pacific Gas and Electric (aka., Pacific Greed and Extortion), as an economist. While there I deduced that there was an oversupply of PhD economists, since I was working side by side with 3 of them. This led me to technology. I became the department database expert. Well, someone had to do it!
My next job was as a tech support monkey at Oracle, back when there were only 10 in the whole world. I used to say I was the number 10 tech support engineer at Oracle, and I meant it! Meeting and doing lunch with Larry Ellison convinced me that not only do vampires really exist, they are running technology companies.
After that I went for a kinder, gentler company, Ingres. Great product, but good products and honest smart and kind people cant compete with pure greed lies and a great marketing department. (Read Mike Wilson's "The Difference between Larry Ellison and God: God doesn't think he's Larry Ellison" if you think Microsoft is duplicitous.)
When it looked like the ivory tower at Ingres was starting to collapse, I moved my act closer to home at Sybase. I worked there for almost 10 years, only to witness one of the greatest nose-dives in corporate history. My net worth was a tad tied up in company stock. (This should be a lesson to you if you're working in a high tech company - diversify!)
After Sybase, in 98 I took the year off and fulfilled a life-long wish: to travel around the world for a year. My wife and I dropped out, quit our jobs, and did it. After about 6 months we started to get weary of it, but stuck it out for 13 months!
After all this, I still didn't have a better idea. I mean, there are enough guide books in the world right now. What there isn't a lot of is common sense among travelers - especially Americans (more on this later).
All this brings me to ask what I'm doing at 8PM at work reading Phil's Web Publishing Guide? Searching for a role model, a mentor maybe. Or someone who knows the meaning of it all...?
To me, working in Acedemia seems ideal - Maybe you wont die rich, but you might make a difference in the world.
-- Doug Smith, October 21, 1999
Tsk. You all should have done what I did. Study everything but not get a degree until it was no longer avoidable. So I got a BS in Computer Science, with over 200 hours accepted at the University of Evansville - not quite a school record, but pretty close. Add up ALL my hours, and I had the record hands down!Actually, it was fun. But economic reasons are not a good reason to pursue an education.
-- Paul Davis, November 16, 1999
AS MUCH AS I LOVE THIS SITE I EQUALLY HATE IT.I am a computer science major in my freshmen year, and discovering this site has really made me DEPRESSED and CONFUSED for the simply fact that I hate to face REALITY which is exactly what this site offers. Now that reality has hit my inner soul i think i have to face the FACT.
Thanks for the REALITY check.
-- Mensah Baffour, November 30, 1999
I think all of you groaning-n-moaning computer science people should look at you friends in physics and pat yourself on the back you will be able to make $5K-10K a year when you graduate.I am a physics senior, going on to graduate school. My plan is to work like a dog and get a tenure-track job by the time I'm 30 (making ~$4.5K a year) and get tenure by 35 (making ~$5K-6K a year), and hopefully I won't burn out. Right now I am not particularly depressed because I figure it is impossible for some-one with a higher education to starve to death or else live like a dog in the 21st Century, in America. So one might as well do what one likes. I am looking at a career where most guys can't afford to get married before they are 30, and I wonder what the hell are you comp sci people so depressed about.
-- Ling-N. Zou, November 30, 1999
Maybe it's not obvious, but the pursuit of a PhD usually doesn't include skills (sink or swim) to live with the overhead of management and bills. Unless a candidate has a strong personality to fight the tide, they will not necessarily end up with even a basic skillset which prepares them for financial realities. On the contrary, I know many people today who hesitated about finishing high-school because they saw job opportunities all around them. They can barely form sentences, but they make more money than graduate students. Almost all they care about is their financial growth. They assume they will do what they want after they've built their fortune; perhaps they will go to a famous college when they are old and try to become part of the elite or upper-class. They see no point to the financial risk of a degree early in life without some guarantee of a position after graduation.A PhD program (perhaps at the fault of the Professors) seems to train people just to be arrogant about their importance and insecure about reality (sometimes referred to as being thoughtful) -- two of the most undesireable qualities in task-oriented employees (but common in upper-management).
What was the point of a PhD, again? What is the goal of a PhD candidate after s/he spends all the time and money to be a graduate student? A company will train you, or let you study, on the premise that you perform a specific task or achieve a goal. What's the difference? If a PhD student has to (or wants to) justify their existence after graduation in terms of financial success, then what good is a non-financially oriented program that they invested their time and money into?
Personally, I don't see why a PhD from an accredited university is desireable compared to the opportunity to work with someone wonderful and wise, learn what they have to teach, and exceed their accomplishments.
-- the flyingpenguin
-- davi flyingpenguin, December 12, 1999
I'm in what is hopefully the last year of my Ph.D. studies. Unfortunately I'm in a dying field - aeronautical engineering. Fortunately, I got a job first, and went back to grad school later. What are my prosects? Probably not a six-figure income, but neither do I worry about sitting on the sidewalk in Times Square with a cardboard sign handing from my neck.What folks have to realize is that labor is becoming a commodity, and paying the dues of academic life won't guarantee a cushy middle age and retirement. The dog-eat-dog world is especially unkind to inmates of the graduate school prison, because their artificially confined outlook is simply incompatible with material success.
What about the people that dropped out of fourth grade, started their own lemonade stand, expanded that to a huge business and are now millionaires? Does their experience invalidate the career and financial prospects of the Ph.D.'s? Not at all! Having a degree is definitely an advantage, but street-smart savvy is far more important. If you have street-smart savvy, you can get rich with or without a degree. If you don't have that savvy, then the degree will help you find a 9-5 salaried job, and that's about the best you can hope for. I think I speak for most present and past grad students when I say that we are not street-smart. So we do what we do best. And in the long run, that's far better than doing nothing at all.
-- Michael OL, December 15, 1999
The culture implied a promise to young students in the sciences and engineering. The promise went something like this: "Work really hard, dedicate your life for, say, ten years to your science field, and you'll be able to make a contribution to mankind. You'll be able to build something, or contribute to scientific knowledge and have a comfortable existence. You won't get rich, but you will be comfortable."The culture broke that promise. It broke a lot of other promises, too. I just read "Stiffed: the Betrayal of the American Male", by Susan Faludi. It's big, but I cried, gasped and snarled my way through it since getting it for Christmas. Let me quote Faludi's words, from an interview with Mother Jones:
"What's changed in the last decade is that you can be honorable and dogged and have high standards, and the culture may just throw you in the garbage. Manhood has been so tied up with socially useful work. The kind of money being made now is not about social utility. It's about whether you've got a good financial manager or not. If you're a hard worker, it's no longer true that you'll be rewarded, or at least honored."
The real trap is that "being a man" means not taking a victim pose, not complaining, "taking it like a man". Which leaves precious few alternatives for change.
-- Jay Gischer, December 29, 1999
Hi everyone!!! This is my second year at arizona state University and my major is computer science and engineering. I think that computers are so cool and exciting. Everyday you can fing out something new about them. I find this continous knowledge not to be overwelming but something that gives me an edge, keeps me sharp and on my toes. This webpage is poorly uneduated on the dinamics of worldly, explorative, the creative and fun side of computer programming. Yea school may suck and be very difficult at times. There's alot of thinking and there so many directions that a person can go but Computer programming is a fundation of knowledge that when well devolped you can intergrate ANYTHING into it. If you know how to program why would you want to sit behide a desk all day writing boring programs when you could be expanding the market of virtual reality, grasping a hold of medical science, experiencing the forbidden, exploring and conversating, playing, advancing and enjoying. NO. Computer science is not worthless and boring but will be the most exciting job of this century. beleive in yourself don't let scare you away from your dreams:) talena:)
-- talena sharp, January 20, 2000
I can't believe the comments this page generated. First, I got a BA in English/French in 1992. Since then I worked my way into a software development role. It pays decent money. Why are you guys getting so upset about the pictures and captions on this site? I think it was little more than a joke. You don't seriously think there are homeless PH.D's out there do you?I agree with what so many others have said before me on this page. Your life is what you make of it. Don't expect for a minute to be handed anything just because you have a degree. That's the problem with today's youth (myself included - I was guilty of this). Once you get that degree you think the world owes you something. The only thing the world owes you is the right to work hard. Any financial compensation you get in the business world will be commensurate with the effort you put in.
-- Kevin Harris, January 23, 2000
After a PhD in Astrophysics, I ended up creating Web sites. Now I wonder why did I spent so many years for? I could do the same job just after a couple of years in college. But my days at the lab were the best part of my life: research is self-gratifying. But the advise I gave to others was "don't do it". Some tried and decided to drop out a couple of years later. In the current marketplace there is no need for basic research. "Quick way to the market" mentality exploits scientific findings, but does not open pathways to the future.
-- T.G. Dallas, February 4, 2000
I can't change anything. I guess you can't too. All I ask is: show a little respect to the people who create your wellfare. What could you buy for your money if there had not been any scientists in this world? Think about it. All of you live better than the kings did several centuries ago. And you could not live so comfortable for longer time if there were not people with a Ph. D.
-- tadas k, February 8, 2000
If you spend ten years of preparing for a career for which there is no market, I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for you. Ph.D.s are not paid well for one reason: there are more produced every year than the market needs. There are a lot of people out there (not scientists) who can't do what they love for a living, but they find a way to do what they love.
-- Steven Hupp, February 17, 2000
Wonderful to see similar sentiments. After years of gut-wrenching turmoil of whether I should enter the monastic life (and in parellel getting the B.S. in electrical and M.S. in computer engineering), your page has changed my life! Now I've decided to sell my soul (sorry God and Buddha) to the almighty dollar and everything has become lucidly clear. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! P.S. Ever consider starting a 'lost scientist/engineer' tele-evangelist cult? Well if you do and it does go for an IPO, I'd like to be considered for a marketing/advertising position. Regards.
-- John Covington, February 24, 2000
I have a CS BS from the University of Missouri at Rolla. I've been working for almost a year. I'm not rich, but I live awfully well, and I have time to indulge my theoretical interests. As it so happens, I also have a genuine interest in something that has immediate market value. There's nothing inherently wrong with you if you don't, but it is not reasonable to complain that people will not make you wealthy when you have nothing they want in trade.There is nothing inherently different here with someone who has a more advanced degree - the only difference is that more of the people with advanced degrees think that because they're so damned educated and intelligent, they're automatically worth money they haven't earned.
Envy is not pretty, people. We all make choices; learn to choose what you want and be happy with it, because you can't have everything. Nobody has everything, no matter how enviable his life might seem from afar.
-- John Adelsberger III, February 25, 2000
I will be graduating this quarter with my BSEE from the University of California in Davis and starting work making $62k/yr. Interestingly, I got involved in EE because I hated computer engineering/science because of the programming, but I love computers. Anyway, the point is to continually look at what you like and don't like and then surround yourself with what (or who) you like.
-- Justin Magers, February 28, 2000
The study on the nerd monkeys which were trained to procure popcorn by pressing a series of levers was cited in the February 2000 edition of Discover Magazine.I thought it was worth noting here that while it's true that the nerd monkeys achieved no elevation in their social standing within the group, they were allowed to keep some of the popcorn for themselves by the alpha monkeys. When the alpha monkeys just beat them up and took their popcorn, the nerd monkeys quit procuring it. The alpha monkeys learned that if they wanted to get popcorn from the nerd monkeys, they had to let the nerds enjoy some of the fruits of their labor.
The moral to this story? Heck I don't know. Draw your own conclusions. Maybe nerds will never be able to command the respect they deserve, but they *should* at least be able to demand a cubicle with a window?
-- Patricia Quintin, March 1, 2000
I stumbled accross this page by accident.... but after reading a few posts had to add one.I've been in the Navy (MM), Cooked fine French Food (at $40 a plate in 1985), drafted (ACAD 11-13), worked at the post office (automated letter sorting) and now am medically retired at age 32.
I've learned 3 things 1) no matter how much you make, you can always spend more 2) There is no such thing as "common sence" any more because no one has it.... it is now "un-common sence" 3) Most importantly, know were you are going in life, because like the Mexican fisherman story, if you are heading were you already are, then you might as well stay there and enjoy it NOW NOT 20 YEARS FROM NOW.
-- Dan Oster, March 4, 2000
Imagine that a grand parade is about to pass before us. It is a parade of the entire population of Britain and it will last one hour. But there is something strange about this parade, something that will tell us a great deal about the society we live in. The height of the people in the parade is determined by their income---the poor are short, the rich are tall. Imagine that we, the spectators, are the average height---that is the average income for the economy as a whole. Here is what we would witness.First we see minuscule characters pass by, no taller than a match stick. They are housewives who have worked for a short time and who have nothing like an annual income. There are school kids with a part time job, FE students still living at home. It takes five minutes for them to pass.
In the next five or six minutes the people passing before us become noticeably taller, but they are still the size of elves, perhaps two or three feet high. They are young people on social security, the unemployed, very many old age pensioners and owners of small shops doing poor trade. Next come a wide range of low paid workers: young nurses, lower grade civil servants, refuse collectors. The unskilled white collar workers march in front of the unskilled manual workers. A sizeable proportion of Britain's black population is passing before us now.
It takes 15 minutes for the marchers to reach a height much over four feet. For us this is a disturbing site. Fifteen minutes is a long time to see people march by who barely reach our waist. Nor is there buch relief in site. Another 10 minutes goes by before small people who reach our collar bone arrive on the scene---skilled manual workers, office workers with considerable training. We know the parade will last an hour and perhaps we expected that after half an hour we would be able to look the marchers in the eye, but we are still looking down on top of their heads and even in the far distance there is no sign of improvement. The height is growing terribly slowly. A full three quarters of an hour has passed before we see people our own size arriving.
But in the last ten minutes, with the arrival of the top ten percent, the parade becomes sensational. At first they are modestly tall, perhaps six feet: headmasters, depatment heads---people who never thought they were in the top ten percent. Then things become really bizarre.
Giants loom over us: a not particularly successful lawyer---18 feet tall. The first doctors come into view---24 feet high. The accountants, taller even than the doctors. There is still a minute to go. Now we see figures far bigger than houses: a university professor 27 feet high, senior manages in large firmes 30 feet high, a permanent secretary in Whitehall 40 feet tall and even taller high court judges. Top accountants and surgeons go past at a height of 60 feet or more.
Even this is not the end of it. Now the sun is blotted out by figures the size of tower blocks. Most of them are businessmen, managers of large firms and holders of many directorships, some are film stars or members of the royal family. Prince phillip is 180 feet high high. John Paul Getty's height is incalculable---at least ten miles high, perhaps twice that.
This description is more than 20 years old. It come from a book by economist Jan Pen. If it was written today the poor would be shorter and the rich would be even taller. This society makes me sick!!
-- Michael Valle, March 7, 2000
It is an odd world we live in. After reading this forum, I'm left wondering if the general dissatisfaction of higher education expressed has little to do with money, but is in fact symptomatic of a cerebral duality; a sort of "Anal-retentive Creativity" manifesting in the common "Square-peg-in-Round-hole Sydrome".Statistically, my intuition is invalid, but it seems that dwellers of the developed world straddle a fence between reason and interpretation; such as, engineers who muse aloud on photo web sites. In my defence, I admit a personal aquaintance with the dynamic tension fence sitting can cause.
In my case, Father always told me Id starve as a poet. Mother (who was an English teacher) told me to keep at the writing. Born at the tail end of the Father Knows Best era, I listened to Dad and received a B.Sc. in Forest Engineering from the University of New Brunswick in 1988.
I have worked the bush of New Brunswick, managed woodlots in Nova Scotia, sold process controls to mills throughout the Atlantic Provinces, engineered and deactivated roads in British Columbia. But for better or worse, the artist in me would no longer be silenced and so it was that I grabbed the family and made a leap across the cerebral fissure between right and left brain.
Now, oddness and wonders continue. We've never had fewer pennies to rub together... nor have we ever been happier; though the story is still unfolding. Stay tuned for the screenplay, possibly comming to a theatre near you.
-- Craig Pulsifer, March 27, 2000
It's sad and depressing...but maybe all this analysis would not have been called for if there weren't so many people in fields like computer science that enrolled purely for the possibility of higher salaries.
-- EXN NXE, April 7, 2000
Hey man! I clicked on the link which tells you abou 4 random people and the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius was one of them. The page says that he ruled the entire world as it was known at that time. Well, I am sure India was known to the Europeans in 121 AD AND India was not ruled by the Romans at any time. I did some research ( On the Web) and found that the por chap spent his entire life trying to defend his kingdom. Guess you cannot trust content on the Internet. ;)
-- Ratnakarprasad Tiwari, April 11, 2000
I'm a CS major at a college in the Midwest. Most of the people I've talked with wanna be slaves to industrial grind of the 2K millenia. This doomsday logic eludes me as much the as the unpredictable weather in this part of the country, maybe more. My father is a middle-class businessman, and I could have made more money working for him than I'll make until upto two years after graduation.
-- Faisal Shahid, April 17, 2000
Dear PhD candidates: (I am a PhD from MIT, by the way, course 6)I really recommend that you follow the MBA recruitment (you know, McKinsey, BCG, Investment Banks etc). If you do so, you might get either the same offer as an MBA ($120K to $150 + bonus), or a little less. Since the consultants and banks are being rejected by top MBA schools, they are desperate for *bright* people (and some of the companies are eager to get PhD's).
If you see it this way, you endup at the same level as an MBA, maybe without the work experience, but without paying the 60K for two years of MBA. (PhD = 6 years, MBA = 2year +(2to4 yrs work experience) after undergraduate).
Of course, just forget you can apply your research (but certainly you can really go far at least knowing how to email).
-- Best Regards, April 19, 2000
Stop Whining! Get over it! The world doesn't owe you a damn thing!
-- Jeff Lussenden, May 21, 2000