It has been nearly a year since Alex died. I have been thinking about adopting a puppy. I told a woman who knows me well that I was considering getting a Border Collie so that “there would be one female in the house who listens to me.” She said “Border Collies are too high energy and they bark and they’ll run after small children, thinking that they are sheep, and nip them. You don’t have enough physical strength and energy to keep up with a Border Collie.”
A friend said “Go visit my friend Betty; she has a lot of experience with the breed.” So we went over today to see the woman on a 20-acre sheep farm. Three Border Collies approached the car but did not bark. Before we walked out to a field with Betty, she put some cramp-ons on her boots. “I had polio and still have some weakness in my legs,” she explained while walking over the solid sheet of ice leading to the gate. Once inside the pasture, she demonstrated using a whistle and a few voice commands to have the 11-year-old dog work four sheep. Then it was the turn of a 6-year-old bitch. Finally she showed us how she was training an 8-month-old puppy.
At least three times during the meeting I asked questions and she sharply reminded me that she’d already answered it during a phone conversation over the weekend.
As it happens, we’re friends with Robin, one of Betty’s neighbors, so we dropped by to see how her greenhouse was doing. We mentioned that we’d seen Betty and her Border Collies. Robin said “That’s really a lot of farm for an 82-year-old woman to run by herself.”
Border collies ARE high energy and very intelligent. They usually rank in the top few breeds for smarts. They are very trainable but need to work- without much release for their intellect and activity level chewing, escape, pillage, and worse are unfortunately the norm in the less for the stellar dog trainer. Google local rescue organizations for the breed may be an indicator.
The breed is also not good with children. A cousin of the Border Collie is the Shetland Sheepdog (Sheltie) which you have some familiarity with but I admit my particular model may have sniffed too much car exhaust as a puppy. My prior 4 shelties were reasonably intelligent and all are were so eager to please training was a snap.
You’ll probably get a million “I have a Border Collie and let me tell you…” responses, but let me be the first. I have a mix (mixed with what, we don’t know). He’s been a great dog. He spends almost all of his time indoors, where he prefers to be, because he wants to be around people. He is very intelligent and this translates to “very sneaky”. He loves to play with kids but occasionally nips them, usually with cause. Overall, based on this one dog I would not discourage anyone from considering a Border Collie.
However, we had a brief experience with another one — a female. All of the above apply except she was even smarter, and hence sneakier. She was also very nervous. We could not leave her alone inside the house because she was not well house-broken. Once we came home to find that she had hidden the mess under a pile of laundry (obviously intentional behaviour). We could also not leave her in the back yard, because she could get over our six-foot fence (I saw her do it). We could not leave her chained because she would dig holes. We could not take her with us in the car because she would jump out the window. We finally had to give her back to the humane society where we had adopted her.
I would not try with this breed again mainly because they are working dogs and are happiest when they have something to herd. It isn’t really fair to the dog, even when they are tolerable as pets. But if you like to the dog with you everywhere it might do just fine.
Gordon: Thanks to the U.S. Economic Miracle, I, like most other folks in the aviation industry, spend a lot of time at home. There are miles of trails right from the backyard and I am thinking about doing some agility training (inspired by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdBO91S7qf8 ). I do want a dog that I can take most places with me. I took my Samoyeds almost everywhere.
Border collies are the best breed for agility and flyball.
Have you considered a German Shepard? (European, not those stunted in the hind quarters American ones.)
Great dogs if you get them from a proper and reputable breeder.
pdwalker: Thanks for the suggestion. I don’t want a breed that is likely to be aggressive towards people or other dogs. I’ve met a lot of very nice German Shepherds, especially females (and I love the long-haired female Shepherds), but I also know a lot that have to be kept confined because they are so aggressive (and one of them is from Germany). It probably isn’t fair that Shepherds get lumped in by homeowner’s insurance companies with Pit Bulls (see http://www.netquote.com/newsletter/archive/09-2008/dogbreeds.aspx ), but on the other hand whenever you’re doing something that an insurance company won’t cover it is often best to reflect on the wisdom of the activity.
I’ve got friends with a pair of border collies. Lovely, intelligent and oh-so-much working dogs.
They run them 4-5 miles a day, and play toss with a tennis ball launcher to try to keep them ‘tired out’. It sounds like you do
Jeff: When my Samoyeds were young I would make sure that they got at least an hour a day to run free and play with other dogs. In addition, they’d get another three walks or so every day, mostly off-leash. So they got as much exercise as they wanted, more or less. I’m not a runner, but I like to mountain bike and walk in the woods so a Border Collie would be able to get at least 3 miles per day of exercise, possibly a lot more if she ran back and forth while I walked.
(continued)
It sounds like you could keep a border collie similarly busy. I can also echo the difference between the male & females…I’d suggest a male based on my experiences as well.
If you’re considering a Shepherd, the Monks of New Skete breed wonderful dogs (and they’ve got great training and training materials as well). They regularly bring in new breeding dogs from Germany to keep the bloodlines fresh.
http://www.newsketemonks.com/dogs.htm
Thanks, Jeff. I was thinking that a female Border Collie would be easier, especially if I later adopted a male Samoyed. But perhaps that is simply prejudice.
The Monks of New Skete are apparently living right next to the Cambridge (New York) VOR, an all-important waypoint for jet traffic in and out of Boston!
I’m still not ready for a dog breed that has been successfully used as a guard dog.
Phil,
Well bred shepards are extremely well and even tempered. The one’s my mother has lived with have been fantastic around kids.
Ill mannered shepards are not bred with respectable breeders. Be that as it may the Border Collies, if you can keep up with them, will be an interesting companion.
Phil,
if you had samoyeds for so long, why do you want to change? I would personally go for a breed that is similar to samoyeds that in addition does what samoyeds do not (but you’d like they did) and does not what samoyeds do that bugs you.
By and large I’d go with the calmest easiest breed that fits your bill. Life is hard as it is without being forced to “manage” a dog that does not naturally fall within your lifestyle.
I addition consider crossbreeds: some friends have a border collie/lab mix which seems to posses all the assets and none of the liabilities of the two parental breeds (maybe a samoyed x something else might be your perfect dog if you find it).
Philip-
I am dog-illiterate, even faintly anti-dog, but my sister has a border collie, and it is a splendid, smart, high-energy dog. She (the dog) is a mental case for sticks, to the point of deeming shopping receipts worthy of being thrown. She’s able to run for kilometres on end beside a bike, and for the most does what you want. If there isn’t something thrilling going on, she will get bored and take a nap, perhaps after two such cycles will start misbehaving.
She doesn’t bark unless frightened (takes work) or particularly vigorously taunted, and will give you a nip if you’re being a dick (e.g. 9-year old boy).
With no training, this dog was dropped into a field, and instinctively heaped the cows into a group. That was surprising.
So, if you can keep a female collie stimulated, she will be a great companion.
You may be able to keep a high energy dog sufficiently stimulated when you are there. However, when you travel without your dog, your cohabitants will have a dog with lots of pent up energy. The people I know who’ve done agility training end up spending significant time, not just training, but going to meets and competitions. Is this your personal dog or a family pet?
Stephen: Thanks for the words in favor of the girls.
David: Of course this is MY personal dog! Everything in the house is MINE, MINE, MINE… 🙂 [I’m not going to travel to meets and competitions; that’s too much dog craziness even for me. But as God is my witness, MY Border Collie will do the weave poles.]
Any dog that enters your family will be loved and truly well cared for! Wooof!!!! and just as a remembrance:http://www.skilobear.com/images/skilo2.jpg
As Federico asked, why not another samoyed?
You did manage with the samoyedes well, with all of your activity. If you keep up a similar activity level as mentioned you would, a border collies should be fine, at least in the exercise department.
A border collie (depending on the individual dog) will be a bit of a departure from the friendly to all, personable samoyede dog mentality most likely- not quite so endeared to children or silly nonsense. They’re just a bit more severe and intense due to their breed’s task-background. There will also be a greater chance of them not liking flying in a small GA airplane. If you get a puppy, get them flying early.
I have a samoyede, pembroke corgi, and a sibe/samoyede mix puppy. I have my samoyede pulling a sledge in the winter, he loves it more than anything and will practically put himself into his harness. When the puppy matures I will probably go with one of those dog scooters. If you do get a border collie, I’d reccomend letting him do some herding trials in addition to agility. Dogs love to do what they were bred for with a satisfying intensity.
Just a note of caution–you say you’re trying to avoid getting a breed that’s aggressive. My purebred border collie is and has always been (from puppydom) mouthy to the point of aggression. It’s an overdevelopment of the herding instinct and is very difficult to control. She snarls at me at least once every couple of months. I love her, but it’s a reason I’d never get a purebred bc again.
Hey Phil:
Long time reader, first time poster.
I adopted an Old English Sheep Dog from the local Humane Society in Mandan, North Dakota, about a year ago and am very impressed with her intelligence and gentleness. She was a stray with no training when I got her (between one and two at the time) and picked up almost everything very quickly.
Mine likes to heard (something I found out the hard way last spring while walking near a local auction barn). She seldom barks. She needs at least one good walk every day, but otherwise is content to follow me around the house and sleep. she loves everybody and everybody loves her. She travels extremely well.
An Old English may be a nice compromise between a Samoyed and a border collie? Good luck. And post pictures.
Phil,
I would strongly recommend a Viszla.
-Tim
We have two Border Collies mixes rescued from the pound. One is mixed with lab; great dog; very trustworthy; content to be idle, but a real terror if an another dog/fox/raccoon/groundhog comes into her territory. The other is purer and highly neurotic; she was abandoned because she bit a small child. We have a four year old daughter and have never had a problem with either dog even though the neurotic one gets a bit nervous when our daughter gets too involved with her.
These dogs do not want to be stuck on a leash no matter how much you walk them. We have to use gentle leaders to keep them from choking themselves – especially when we encounter other dogs on trail. So, we fenced about three acres and let both dogs have the run of the yard. They dig; they destroy flower beds; they destroy whatever you leave laying about the yard; and they destroy any animal that enters into the yard and is too slow to get away.
The dogs are also very territorial and bark endlessly at deer or people who are anywhere in sight – including people walking along the road about 300 yards from the fence. And they bark at any strange noise day or night – I’ve been woken up at 3am more times than I can remember.
Great dogs. We love them tremendously. Not for everyone, but neither is a chainsaw.
To the folks who asked “Why not a Samoyede?” my reply is “because slavery is illegal in the U.S.” (in U.S. English, “Samoyede” refers to a member of an ancient Siberian tribe; a “Samoyed” is one of the dogs that have been their companions for centuries).
To the folks who asked “Why not a Samoyed”: I expect to get another Samoyed, perhaps in a year or two. Samoyeds are great but they’re not especially agile; the big males are a bit too heavily built to do the kinds of things that agility dogs do. Samoyeds are smart but they are not necessarily interested in learning and doing what a human wants them to learn and do. I thought it might be nice to have a dog who is primed to listen and learn some outrageous and fun tricks.
“I thought it might be nice to have a dog who is primed to listen and learn some outrageous and fun tricks.”
My favorite dog was a Sheltie/Beagle mix that we had when I was growing up. He looked nothing like a beagle except that his coat wasn’t quite as bushy as a normal sheltie’s is. He was the most eager-to-please dog I’ve ever known and was agile and learned easily. It sounds like a sheltie might do well for you if you want a dog primed to listen and learn fun tricks and have a greater desire to please his master than a Samoyed.
I say samoyede as that is the original pronunciation and spelling of the breed. The -e got lopped off sometime in the 20s and 30s. Samoyed is pretty much a borderline ethnic slur for those Yamal Peninsula people. ‘people that eat themselves’ They call themselves Nenets.
The Russians properly just called the dogs Nenetskaya Laika.
The usual exchange out in public when someone asks what type of dog it is. I say “Sam-yED” and they look confused. Then I have to say “It looks like SAM OY YED” but is pronounced Sam-yEd.”
Peter: The breed books that I’ve read about the Samoyed say that the Russian word can be translated as “self eating”, but really connoted the fact that the Samoyedes were capable of living off the land. They could “eat by themselves”. If they really wanted to call the native people cannibals, you’d think that the world would literally translate as “people eating”.
Philg wrote: “I thought it might be nice to have a dog who is primed to listen and learn some outrageous and fun tricks”
Yeah, that would be nice. We have a bulldog, not a breed associated with intelligence (except in terms of lack) but she actually knows and continues to learn (at age 8) lots of interesting and useful tricks and performs them on command for treats. Knowing what motivates the dog goes a long way toward training them. Probably helps to start with a dog who wants to please, though; once ours determined that we were please-worthy, which took a while (she was a rescue), she’s been an eager beaver ever since.
Whatever dog you find, or finds you, I wish you both the best.
(that should have been “at age eight” — I used the number and got a smiley?)
I get my border collie “fix” at the website for glenhighlandfarm which is in Morris, NY. I grew up on a farm and we had a border collie who worked all day, every day, finding something to herd. But looking at all of the dogs at Glen Highland, they have varying degrees of the instinct. Good luck to you in your search and luck is good to the dog that gets to be your friend.
I’m biased of course but Standard Poodles have worked out quite well for me. We have two of them (6 and 4 years old). They are extremely affectionate . The older never chewed anything but sticks provided and the younger chewed a buckle off of a pair of sandals. They still have just about all the toys that have been given them over the years.
We also have a cat we raised from a litter dropped off in the shed behind the house and all get along quite well.
Both dogs were neutered before their first estrus and that may contribute to their extended puppy-like behavior.
Also, they don’t shed – but it’s $70 per dog every seven weeks at the groomer.
They are very affectionate and non aggressive dogs as well as eing very good with children.
I forgot, here’s a link to their picture.
http://www.johnbirchfield.com/Pictures/Family/dogdayafternoons2006/img_0148.html