Some Facebook friends were having a discussion of a recording of Donald Trump’s private conversation in 2005. A Texas resident (and Hillary supporter, as it happens) opened with “The only thing I find remarkable about the debate about Mr. Trump’s audio and video recordings from the last few years is that so many men claim to be surprised about it.” A liberal New Yorker male feminist immediately attacked her with “Wow, L. That’s really sexist.” The funniest part of the discussion was a link to this Bill Burr video about old people out of sync with modern political views.
Most of the comments were actually by men saying that they would never do or say anything bad. Or maybe they did a few decades ago, before they became enlightened by Obama and Hillary, but nowhere near as bad as stuff that Donald Trump does and says. None of these guys judging the Donald had stacks of cash, private jets, two Sikorsky S-76 helicopters, celebrity, rich friends, or a circle of attractive young women anxious to join that party, but they were confident that they would behave well if they did. It was sort of an inverse Ring of Gyges fable.
In response to “Private guy talk. Pretty tame stuff. Of course, I lived in a fraternity house at a major university for two years,” here’s one salaryman’s condemnation of the billionaire:
The fact that it doesn’t bother you is a significant part of the problem. Sounds like you’ve been enculturated, perhaps through your fraternity experience or elsewhere, that this sort of thing is okay in a fraternity or anywhere else, for that matter. I reject that notion wholesale. I support your freedom of speech to say this sort of thing, but I am also free to observe that it is clearly demeaning to women and wouldn’t want my daughters exposed to it in any context, particularly in a business setting where it undermines their rights and opportunities. In shorthand, a clear indicator of what many describe as ‘Rape Culture.’
I would also add that what might seem okay in an all teen male fraternity environment is hopefully something that adult men can grow beyond as they mature and are socialized to interact with women on a more equal socio-economic basis. To see it in a middle age adult in a business setting is, candidly, disgusting, and would be grounds for immediate dismissal from any company I would respect.
Thankfully, none of my friends or the groups I’ve had the good fortune to frequent over the last thirty plus years are even a tiny fraction so crass or insensitive to women. Though I think this presidential race is certainly demonstrating that many seem to think as you do, but clearly, even more are as opposed to such behavior as I am. Maybe you could look beyond your current haunts for better, more forward looking role models? Come visit!
I think the way all of this is playing out is an illustration of the genius of Max Weber, who wouldn’t have been at all surprised to see how people whose paychecks depending on keeping a position within a bureaucracy will adjust their speech and, eventually, their thought processes.
Related:
- Bill Burr on ordinary people judging celebrities (about halfway through)
- Prince and Donald Trump
So disappointing to hear that someone thinks Mr. Trump at 59 is “middle-aged.” That would suggest we’re going to have to wait for him to be 120yrs old before he dies.
Without personally seeing and (analyzing what I saw) the effects of wealth or high charisma on women, I would have found it hard to believe also – because the idea that women throw themselves at you is so far outside the salaryman existence.
It’s not like The Donald was ever going to win, but hardly anyone actually listened to the recording, only reciting the CNN headline instead. It was a lot more boring than the headline, with context taken out. Consider they’re waiting for a bus in a time before a single smartphone existed. The only way to stay entertained in those days was boring conversations. It wasn’t a campaign speech or a lewd tone at all. If every private conversation made by everyone was recorded, no-one would have a job.
the Donald was far enough up the financial and media food chain to be exposed to reality recording 10 years ago, and now the tape is evaluated in 2016 PC context. Today everybody (except maybe Rep. Weiner) knows better than to expose themselves to a computer or cell phone, much less a videocam.
That said, no way is Trump qualified to be POTUS. We can only hope four more years will bring better candidates for both parties.
I would say anyone who acts surprised that Donald Trump would say such things, even today, has their head in the sand.
Also anyone who would act surprised to hear Bill Clinton say the same things has their head in the sand.
Also anyone who would act surprised to hear Hillary Clinton say the same things has their head in the sand.
“None of these guys judging the Donald had stacks of cash, private jets, two Sikorsky S-76 helicopters, celebrity, rich friends, or a circle of attractive young women anxious to join that party, but they were confident that they would behave well if they did. It was sort of an inverse Ring of Gyges fable.”
In New York, forcible touching is a Class A misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in prison. It’s pretty serious.
A fair number of women had already told stories about Trump being a groper (example: Jill Harth; follow-up), but it’s far harder to dismiss when you hear Trump bragging about it himself. Which is why a lot of Republicans (including John McCain) withdrew their support of Trump on Saturday.
Russil –
According to your source I am guilty of forcible touching almost every day. Almost every day I “intentionally touch the sexual or intimate parts of another person [my girlfriend] for no legitimate reason [less likely] or in order to receive sexual gratification [more likely]. Touching can mean squeezing, grabbing, or pinching.”
In fact, sometimes I am reprimanded for failing these duties.
Maybe there should be some wording about consent, implied or explicit, and how to obtain it.
The most striking thing about the salaryman’s quote is his implicit presumption that private conversations between two friends should be subject to the same thought policing as public speech.
The second most striking thing is that he has emotionally surrendered his balls to women for so long, he thinks men who aren’t similarly submissive are pathological.
What America needs is a slutwalk in every city to protest this.