Some people complain that dishwasher performance has been hobbled by regulations limiting water usage (see a comment on Science says to throw out all of your appliances, for example).
For showerheads, manufacturers deal with the regulations by making normal-flow devices in metal and inserting a plastic flow restrictor that any consumer with a screwdriver can knock out, thus bypassing the regulation and luxuriating in a powerful shower.
With automobiles, people who want to get the last bit of performance install aftermarket software for engine control (example from the UK; example from Norway). I’m wondering why nobody seems to have done with this dishwashers. Everything about the dishwasher is under software control, right? When to fill with fresh water, when to stop filling, when to turn on the circulation pump, when to turn on the drain pump, when to open the detergent compartment, etc.
What would stop a consumer from installing his/her/zir/their own control board that would do the following:
- fill the dishwasher with 2X the standard amount of water
- run the circulation pump for a while (assume the owner has put some detergent in directly on the inside of the door
- pump out the dirty water
- fill the dishwasher again with fresh water
- pump out the rinse water
- fill the dishwasher with 2X the standard amount of water
- open the detergent compartment
- run the circulation pump for a while
- rinse again
- …
If the 1980s experience is what is sought, start with a dishwasher that includes a grinding disposer instead of a weak European-style filter (example: GE’s Piranha Hard Food Disposer).
What’s the flaw in the above theory? Are today’s circulation pumps nowhere near as powerful as what the dishwashers of the 1980s had? (I remember putting in pans with stuck-on cheese and they came out of a Whirlpool dishwasher completely clean; the machine was rather noisy, though.) If the pumps are as good as in the old days, it would seem that fresh software could restore function to pre-regulation levels.
Related:
- “War on appliances continues as Biden admin releases new rules for dishwashers” (Fox News, March 2023)
Can only imagine the luxury of a dishwasher. Technology connections had some opinions on why dishwashers declined in performance. Manely, detergent pods caused multi millionaire home owners to stop using the pre rinse compartment.
lion: There is no pre-rinse compartment on the door of the latest Bosch dishwashers! By design, detergent is used during only phase of the magic machine’s operation. If you wanted detergent during two phases, therefore, you’d have to throw some in (or one pod).
Coincidentally I was just cleaning the filter around my (Kitchenaid) dishwasher’s pump since it wasn’t cleaning dishes that well. It’s really quite clever – when the water flows in one direction, detritus is caught by a fine mesh stainless steel filter cylinder; when it is draining and the water flows in the other direction, the filter spins and some plastic scrapers notionally scrape off the detritus so that it exits with the drain water. The cleverness was no match for a paper label and the subsequent backup which required manual intervention.
During my foray into the bowels of the dishwasher, I also perused the manual. The description of “Express Wash” (“Express Wash will clean dishes using slightly more water and energy”) suggested another way forward a la Volkswagen. If they can include an Express Wash option, and presumably use the “Normal” setting to meet water and energy use mandates, perhaps they could include an Aquavore Wash for owners who have chosen to live in regions in which water conservation is not the dominant ethos.
I also don’t understand the preoccupation with noise. There are surely many people who run the dishwasher at night and have their kitchen a decent distance from other house areas. If it could do a good job in an hour, I could accept an arbitrary amount of noise.
I don’t want to blame the victim, but I thought the Bosch was unique in forsaking the food grinder in favor of filters only, though I don’t know if the current food grinders are as aggressive as the one you depicted (which looks good). It also seems anomalous in not allowing you to use detergent in the pre-rinse and the wash.
Mitch: As an American, I demand to be recognized as a victim (not “blamed”, I hope)! I am going to put on a yellow Star of David like Bill Joel (see https://www.timesofisrael.com/billy-joel-says-he-wore-star-of-david-at-concert-after-enraged-by-trump/ ). That said, I do not believe that Bosch is unique.
We will start with the Truth: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/
The first one is Bosch (covered in the original post). The second is https://www.maytag.com/kitchen/dishwashers-and-compactors/dishwashers/top-control-dishwashers/p.top-control-dishwasher-with-third-level-rack-and-dual-power-filtration.mdb8959skz.html
The linked owner’s manual does show that there is a possibility of adding detergent for a prewash cycle. The site doesn’t say anything about a grinder and the manual talks about a “foreign object cup”. But since there is no mention of a filter that requires regular cleaning, maybe there is a grinder. (All American dishwashers used to have one.)
The third one is https://www.mieleusa.com/e/built-under-dishwasher-g-7106-scu-xxl-clean-touch-steel-11387580-p
No mention of a grinder. No prewash detergent compartment, but “You can also apply a small amount of detergent to the inner panel of the door in programs that have a prewash stage. There’s a salt reservoir for hard water (!). It has exactly the same kind of filter as a Bosch: “The message Check filters will appear in the display after every 50 program sequences.” (Bosch is actually better in this regard, I think; it has some kind of sensor for when the filter is clogged.)
I think the obsession with noise makes sense. The typical American McMansion has the kitchen open to the family room where the sacred TV is. If you want to have the kitchen cleaned up before going to bed (so that the kitchen is ready to use for breakfast the next morning) AND you want to watch TV until 1 minute before bedtime then you must run the dishwasher in the same open room as the TV.
The premise that newer dishwashers don’t perform as well as older ones because they are “forced” to use less water could be false. From my experience, the problem is that newer dishwashers don’t last as long. I have had already four (including my current one) Bosch dishwashers, they were all great when they were working (less than five years on average). I suspect that the real issue if that they are not as durable because they are optimized for noise, electricity consumption and weight, not durability (even older dishwashers use very little water). Low noise levels are important to me, I live in NYC, and I don’t want the clangor of the dishwasher to overpower the melodies coming from the streets.
What is this obsession with Bosch? Surely there are better American dishwashers.
I optimize appliances for ease of repair. It’s way easier to get parts/service for american appliances.
SK: Thanks to the miracle of open borders keeping domestic factory wages low, Bosch dishwashers are made in the U.S. (though I think most of the parts come from China). https://www.bosch-home.com/us/experience-bosch/about-bosch says 2,000 employees with factories in NC and TN. The Bosch that came with our house says that it was made in the U.S., which I think means North Carolina. Miele is also looking to scoop up some cheap working-class labor here: https://www.mieleusa.com/m/miele-to-open-u.s.-production-facility-for-cooking-appliances-1189
Bosch preserves jobs in the repair industry by refusing to provide service manuals: https://pirg.org/articles/bosch-we-dont-support-self-service/
(If you’re a rich European, I think that you buy Miele and not Bosch. Maybe Bosch is the GE of Europe? The Consumer Reports folks say that Miele is inferior to the highest end Bosch for drying and noise. Also, they don’t hardly any dishwasher 5/5 for “washing” performance. Bosch and Miele are at 4/5. I can’t figure out how Bosch can be ranked #1 when it doesn’t wash as well as an Ikea (Whirlpool in disguise, I think) or a GE (maybe the disposer helps?).
Here’s a $3600 Miele: https://www.mieleusa.com/e/semi-integrated-dishwasher-g-7916-sci-xxl-autodos-clean-touch-steel-obsidian-black-11388290-p
They also make a $1300 one: https://www.mieleusa.com/e/pre-finished-g-5006-scu-clean-touch-steel-11636690-p
In the UK I’ve experienced various Bosch (and other German) models and two Beko (Turkish) models, of which the second melted its baskets and some plastic utensils and would have caught fire if not disconnected (after several years of service).
Its replacement, the cheapest in the shop, is way better than any of the earlier models (though, as often, the UI designers need to be beaten with a studded cosh), and many times cheaper than a Miele or similar. Difficult to justify paying £1000+ for a dishwasher even if it actually unstacked the clean dishes into the cupboard for you.
That applies even more to creating a custom programmer for the machine. My experience with the EU-regulated products is that they now come with a default program that takes several hours and uses the least water/energy to qualify for the “greenest” label, but you can select from other hotter, wetter, or shorter washes. You can tell the cheapo model whether you want more washing on the top or bottom baskets, even.
Could it be that Miele prices are much higher in the USA than in Europe?
https://www.elcorteingles.es/search/?s=miele+lavavajillas&hierarchy=&deep_search=&stype=text_box_multi&sorting=featuredDesc
It looks like they have some low-end models that are sold in Europe, but not imported to the U.S. Maybe the prices here are 20 percent higher, especially when you consider that European prices include VAT while American prices don’t include sales tax, but the cheapest ones that they sell in Europe might not have a stainless interior, for example.
@philg obviously the only rational thing to do is go to Germany, buy a dishwasher (Used, so you know it works?), and have it shipped back and installed. I doubt they would put up with the flaky versions we have here. Actually, you should get two, so you can run the much more efficient and sensible “two dishwasher, no dish cabinet” system. (You’re in Florida, so maybe 3 makes more sense…)
SK: If I were selling dishwasher parts, I would also want to make them easy to get. I thought I was going to need this $111 rubber elbow (https://www.searspartsdirect.com/product/28frlf8p23-0022-665/id-w10647237), but thankfully, the problem was just my incompetent re-installation of the hose clamp.
Phil: Yes. I think my idea about more dishwashers with food grinders is outdated. Regarding the yen for waking to a clean kitchen – doesn’t the Bosch have a delay function so that it can start after any adjacent communal activities are completed?
I don’t think the dishwasher folks are pushing serviceability. If it breaks, they want you to get a new one (especially because the new ones are “super-energy-star” or whatever and saving the planet)
I’m sure a $111 dollar elbow (which looks like it would cost about $15 to make and ship from China) is reasonable compared to the hourly rate of a competent appliance repairman making a house call. (if, indeed, such a person could be located)
Off topic observation:
My Miele vacuum (15+ years old) is fantastic! If Miele dishwashers are as good as its vacuum cleaners they are indeed worth $3k.
This is not “off topic”!
Agree about the Miele vacuum, but shouldn’t there be a better way to get hair off the spinning carpet brush?
Phil,
My experience has been that the removal of phosphates (government ban circa 2009) from dishwasher detergent has been the primary driver of worse performance. For awhile it was still possible to purchase dishwasher detergent with phosphates by sourcing “commercial” dishwasher detergent, but that option has disappeared as the manufacturers streamlined their manufacturing operations or for other legal reasons. Using the phosphate included dishwasher detergent was like night and day for “difficult” dishes.
@philg I love the idea. Do you think it makes more sense to try to flash the existing firmware, or to use something like an Arduino to make a helper-or-replacement box that goes into some dead space in the chassis? Here’s one guy (a looong time ago) who worked on something along those lines https://hackaday.com/2011/05/26/hey-oems-arduino-controlled-dishwasher-has-much-potential/
I wonder if there’s a particularly hackable or popular dishwasher platform for DIY (the Volkswagen Bus or Honda Civic of dishwashers)
Not much new here: https://hackaday.com/tag/dishwasher/
Maybe that what I should start doing when I get more time.
There can’t be that many inputs and outputs, so I think it might be simpler to start from scratch with an Arduino. On the other hand, the existing board is probably the location of all of the user controls and displays, so maybe that has to be retained somehow.