Our family room TV is almost impossible to use due to the fact that the hub of the system is a Yamaha RX-6A AV receiver with a complex user interface and many functions that overlap with the TV. What’s worse, the Yamaha has already had one HDMI switch board failure and seems to be on track for another one (the receiver is about 3.5 years old and sells for almost exactly what we paid for the vastly-more-useful and vastly-simpler-to-use 86-inch LG TV, i.e., $800 (we got the TV at Costco 3.5 years ago for $900, but they threw in a five-year warranty that should have been worth about $100).
What functions of the Yamaha do we actually want? We want it to switch among HDMI inputs and amplify sound for five passive speakers. If we had a subwoofer we’d want it to provide a line-level output for a powered subwoofer. A modern television already supports HDMI switching, typically among 4 inputs, which is plenty for 99% of consumers (cable TV box, some sort of dongle, maybe a slide show player). The modern television also puts out multi-channel audio and volume control commands via its eARC HDMI output. From ChatGPT:
Given how cheap Class D amplifiers are and how inventive Asian electronics companies are, I can’t figure out why there isn’t a display-free and remote-free 5- or 7-channel amplifier with a line-level subwoofer output that could take eARC with Consumer Electronics Control (CEC) input and drive one’s legacy passive speakers. This would enable consumers who’ve cut their cable cords to enjoy true surround sound with just one remote control. As a minor enhancement, when the TV is off and eARC has no signal the little amp could offer to play a Bluetooth source, e.g., from a phone app, through the two main speakers.
There must be something wrong with this product idea because nobody makes a “keep the TV at the center of the TV-watching system” amp. But what is the flaw?
I used to think I needed to create a system with an amplifier and speakers and a universal remote programmed so that it was actually usable for other people and didn’t need troubleshooting when something or other got out of sync.
I threw in the towel and now use the TV remote with the TV sound. Life is so much simpler. And the sound is not bad.
I set up a Logitech universal remote at our previous house. It didn’t work reliably and I always had to go back into the closet where the receiver was to see what hadn’t been turned on.
(Separately, I think that my idea would work almost as simply as “TV sound”. Just one dive into the TV’s audio output menu to say “eARC rather than internal speakers” and done.)
@phil Yes, the Logitech Harmony remote. Logitech must have hired extra people to make programming that thing as painful as possible.
Better learn to solder & invest in sweat equity. The largest economy being China & everyone in China knowing how to make things, that’s just the current way of getting nice things.
@phil
Your idea is interesting, although “the tragedy of the commons” has spoken, ePeople want screen-based, complicated stuff with many failure modes, 2025 cars for example.
Have you emailed Crutchfield, Yamaha, etc. with your idea? They might have some feedback for you. Another idea is a separate power amp/home theater processor setup. Quite frankly at $18 for a movie theater ticket ($25 Imax), and the savings from N-95 masks (assuming you don’t wear them at home) it’s much cheaper/easier to just use your current setup and replace components as they fail then to go to the movies like we used to.
I’m not sure someone makes an inexpensive version of this one (at an affordable $3,999, out of stock). It seems to meet your requirements, minus the power amp, for eARC/CEC/Bluetooth input. It even has balanced XLR preamp outputs:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=37887
I’m sure I’m in the tiny minority, but I like simple, flexible, and modular systems.
Space: Thanks for the Monoprice link. That $4,000 processor looks like it could easily leave a household with no sound at all (8 HDMI inputs and, thus, easy to flip mistakenly to one of the 7 inputs that isn’t being used in my scenario). The lack of a power amp is but a minor shortcoming in an implementation of my design for a 5-channel power amp!
@philg
It’s only money, right? The amp is dirt cheap at $649.99:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=43866
Space: Money is indeed cheap these days (look at how Congress spends it). However, I don’t think the amp that you’ve highlighted will automatically power on when eARC goes live. So now there will be two potential points of failure for sound to come out of the speakers.
> But what is the flaw?
$4650 for significantly less than $320 worth of parts? Seems to indicate lack of economy of scale, and not being able to recover engineering investment. How many people own discrete home theater systems? And what percentage of those want only the features you are asking for? Might make an interesting student case study for an economics course or EE design course.
It so happens we just got a Sony Bravia TV with the HDMI ARC connected to an Onkyo NR6100 amp. The Sony remote controls the ambient sound and input source selection. On boot, the TV echos “transferring audio” and hands off the audio signal to the Onkyo. Drives a Dolby 7.1 speaker setup with Atmos and a powered subwoofer — if the sonic image could be better I doubt my ears could hear it.
I depower the system with a good old fashioned master switch. Turning the the TV off with the remote puts the amp in standby. Turning the TV on tells the amp to wake up.
I think Onkyo got caught out on the wrong side of the quality/price curve but they are still out there and supported.
I had to let the logitec remote go when just grabbing the right remote vs. shifting modes got to be too cumbersome to bother with.
Thanks, CCR. I looked up the “Onkyo TX-NR6100 7.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver” (not an “amp”; is there a different but similar named unit that is just an amp?). It looks like it has a ton of buttons and menus and that it would be very possible to get it into a mode where it is trying to do something other than playing sound from the TV! It’s also much bigger and more distracting than it needs to be. Instead of a literal black box just big enough to hold 5 or 7 Class D amps, it is a monstrous 17 1/8˝ x 6 13/16˝ x 14 15/16˝. I appreciate that it can handle 8K video, but I don’t think the amp should even look at the video!
https://onkyo.com/receivers/tx-nr6100
How about replacing 6 bulky boxes (5 speakers + 1 amplifier?) with 2 slim, sleek Kef LS60 powered speakers? The Kefs have a much higher Wife Acceptance Factor, sound better for music, clearer for TV, and good for movies (with matching KC92 sub?). Even the audiophiles at Stereophile.com liked them, putting them in their “class A” list of recommend components.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991LS60WWH/KEF-LS60-Wireless-Mineral-White.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991KC92WH/KEF-KC92-White-Gloss.html
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls60-wireless-loudspeaker
Review, wife’s opinion @ 13:41:
Thanks for the idea. The spec page on the KEF does indicate an eARC input, but I’m not sure if they automatically power up when they see something on eARC. And for people who believe in the 5-speaker or 7-speaker Surround Sound religion, a 2-speaker system is weak (like going back to Christianity after converting to Islam?).
Buying new speakers doesn’t address the market of people who already have working speakers, but whose A/V receiver is dead, dying, or annoying everyone with its complex user interface. A box with 5 or 7 Class D amplifiers should cost about $300 retail, not $6000 like the KEFs. This price estimate is based on the fact that a full 7.2-channel A/V receiver can be purchased new for $320-500 (search just now; https://www.bestbuy.com/product/onkyo-tx-sr494-7-2-channel-a-v-receiver-black/J3ZZ3VRXR4/sku/6400737 seems to be the cheapest).
Or for 1/4 the price, Klipsch The Nines – powered stereo speakers with Bluetooth®, phono input, and HDMI (many favorable reviews vs 5.1 theater setups).
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_714NINESWN/Klipsch-The-Nines-Walnut.html
Klipsch Nines review (love them, sound great, easy for his 6 year old + wife to use):
Not a stranger to soldiering but I think that learning what eARC is when my stereo TV’s (that is mostly used as a PC display) stereo sound is better then any other electronic sound source that I have is a huge waist of time.
I guess we can infer that surround sound is dumb because they keep having to patch it. First you needed 5.1. Then you needed 7.2. Then maybe 9.1 or 11.1, possibly with Dolby Atmos or DTS. https://www.crutchfield.com/S-iAXX8tioAJE/learn/learningcenter/home/hometheater_surround.html
Stereo actually is good because they’ve never had to revisit it!
@phil have you looked at https://emotiva.com/
RH: I actually own a pair of Emotiva powered speakers. https://emotiva.com/products/xpa-7-gen3 looks almost like what I’m proposing. It is a 7-channel amp that doesn’t do anything other than amplify. Sadly, however, at $2,750 it is missing the $50 of eARC and Bluetooth hardware that would allow it to do what I’m suggesting. It can’t possibly turn itself on and play when it sees a signal on eARC because it has no HDMI input.
I just stuck with 7.1 and this dinosaur and simply have a few remotes. Harmony control *almost* worked (tried it years ago). Just use passive optical switch for multiple audio. Don’t use the amp for HDMI. 😀 see: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/497517-REG/Pioneer_VSX_1017TXV_K_VSX_1017TXV_K_7_1_Channel_A_V_Receiver.html
Thanks, Paul. The front panel of that Pioneer is enough to send any normal person running into the arms of ChatGPT and Grok!
Just buy whatever Denon you like and be done with it. For whatever reason they seem to be the only company still interested in producing modern receivers.
(Remains to be seen after they got acquired…)